Women No Longer Tolerate The Same. Men Are Asked To Change. The Silent Relationship Crisis - with Terry Real

Terry Real: 00:00:00

We live in a narcissistic, anti relational, patriarchal, dominant, addictive culture. Go to the Internet and look up courses that will help you grow as an individual.

Go to the Internet and look up courses that help you grow as a relationship. Like.005%. We don't value relationships in this culture.

Lorin Krenn: 00:00:21

Women are speaking their truth more than ever. This is creating a real reckoning in relationships. What is happening to men as a result of this shift?

Terry Real: 00:00:30

This is guys out there ready?

Lorin Krenn: 00:00:36

Welcome to the Core.

I am Lorin Krenn and I help people to get to the core of their deepest challenges in relationships, purpose and life and to create real change at the root. Today's guest needs no introduction, but I will give him one anyway. Terry Real is one of the most respected couples therapists in the world.

He's the founder of Relational Life Therapy and the author of several landmark books, including including I Don't Wanna Talk about it and the US Bestseller us. He has been challenging the way we think about men, masculinity, intimacy and relationships for decades.

Today we went deep into the real relationship work. We need to do that. No one actually speaks about this episode.

If you listen all the way to the end, I promise you, is going to change your life and change your perspective about relationships. If you haven't subscribed, subscribe now so you never miss an episode. Terry, it's amazing to have you here. Thank you for taking the time.

Terry Real: 00:01:45

Oh, it's a pleasure. Thank you.

Lorin Krenn: 00:01:47

What I want to directly dive into deep with you here today is women are speaking their truth more than ever. They're tolerating less. This is creating a real reckoning in relationships.

I wanted to ask you what is happening to men and as a result of this shift?

Terry Real: 00:02:04

That's a great question. You know, someone wants to describe my work as women have had a revolution and now men have to deal with it. I'll tell you. Let's unpack that.

It's worth pausing on for a moment. Women are demanding more and putting up with less. Okay. Why?

Well, one of the great stories of the 20th century is going to be the changing role of women. Women entered the workforce in record numbers. Women are doing better than boys and men generally, educationally.

the way that they did in the: 1800

They want men, thank goodness, but they don't need them. And we've got two career families. We've got women who earn as much, sometimes more, than their male partners. And so, like, what do I need you for?

Well, I need you for love. I need you to be a family man. I need you to raise the kids with me. I need to live a life. You know what, here's the thing.

I often, you know, get on podcasts like this and say we've never wanted more from our relationships than we do right now. Which is true. So here's the deal. Before this revolution in women, the model for marriage was the companionable marriage for centuries, side by side.

Raise the kids, pay the bills, worked the farm, you know, so you didn't have sex for 20 years, or you felt like your husband demeaned you, or you didn't share much of anything. So what? Go back and go home. Nowadays, it's these what I call quality of relationship issues that are leading to divorce. And yes, women are divorcing.

Women are. 70% Of divorces are women. So what's going on? Well, what's going on is that what women are asking of us guys is intimacy, companionship.

We want to be lifelong lovers, but marriage was never built for that, under patriarchy. And I'll go back and explain what I mean by that. But we all fish, and patriarchy is the water we're all swimming in to this day. It has not changed.

That's wishful thinking. Patriarchy is alive and well and patriarchy. Marriage was never built for intimacy. It was built for stability, intimacy.

If you go back and look at Western literature since the beginning, the people who created the idea of romance were the medieval troubadours, all those wonderful knights slaying dragons for their ladies. Well, let's be clear. Those ladies were other men's wives. They were not yours. So from the beginning of its inception, romance was adulterous.

Romance was affairs. But romance wasn't marriage. And all of a sudden, we are redefining what a long term relationship is supposed to look like.

We want to be lifelong lovers. But when I say we, do I really mean we or do I mean mostly hetero women? So here's the dilemma. Women have changed, men have not.

And consequently, women are insisting. You said it really well. They want more and they're putting up with less. Women are insisting on levels of emotional intimacy from us guys that.

Are you ready? We were raised as boys to not have what I said over and over again.

The men I see in my sessions, I would say, Lauren, what you learned as a boy, whether you wanted to or not it was imposed.

What you learned as a boy, what makes a strong, good man, Being stoic, having no vulnerability, not talking much about your feelings, not being dependent, not caring that much about what others think of you, but plunging for all of that. Great. By today's standards, that will guarantee you'll be seen as a lousy partner.

Lorin Krenn: 00:06:53

And I think you even called it a relational disability.

Terry Real: 00:06:57

Oh, I love that. A relational disability. Yeah. And so let's have a moment of compassion, man after man. In my sessions, I will say, and I want the.

Assuming this hetero for a moment. I want the women to have some perspective and compassion for what's being asked when we ask men to be vulnerable.

Remember, the essence of traditional masculinity is invulnerability. Take that in. The more invulnerable you are, the more manly you are, the more vulnerable you are, the more girly you are. And that is not a good thing.

So, men's heroes, Superman, Terminator, no softness anywhere. Hard, hard bodies, hard men. Well, guess what? We connect as human beings through our vulnerabilities.

You cannot be intimate and invulnerable at the same time. It's all bullshit. So what women are knocking on the door of us guys is open your hearts and reconfigure what it means to be a man.

What a big ask that is. But it's the only thing that's going to make us intimate. And I've been talking about this for 40 years and the research has really caught up.

Intimacy is good for us. It's what we human beings are designed for. And when I have a guy in my office, I go, look, I can show you the research.

Not being intimate, as bad for your body as smoking a pack and a half of cigarettes a day.

So rather than beat women down and I'm going to be the man, let's rise to the occasion and open our hearts and learn how to be a different kind of guy.

Now, this is a revolution because at least in my country, the US and pretty much around the world, a lot of the response to women's empowerment and their new demands is a blowback. Let's go back to the 50s. I'm going to be a big swinging dick. You know, there are, there are. Somebody sent me an article.

There was a thing called an alpha male camp. You go to camp to learn how to be a big.

Lorin Krenn: 00:09:17

I've heard of it.

Terry Real: 00:09:19

So there's a lot of, look, let's all go back to the good old days and exercise our privilege and flex our muscles. Yeah. Guess what? That genie is not going back in the bottle. You want to have a relationship?

You have to learn to open your heart and embrace your humanity and have some compassion for your partners. This is all brand new for us guys, and there's not much support for it in the culture, but this is what we need.

Our women need it, our gay partners need it. If we're gay, our children need it, and our bodies need it.

You know, one of the ways I sell this to guys is you'll 10 years longer if you do the work I'm asking you to do, which is literally true, you will live 10 years longer, open your heart and learn how to be a more relational guy.

Lorin Krenn: 00:10:11

Wow. And for a moment, focusing on women here, you talk about this powerful distinction between individual empowerment and relationship empowerment.

Terry Real: 00:10:23

Yes.

Lorin Krenn: 00:10:24

And can you share more about that?

Terry Real: 00:10:27

Yeah, you're right.

This is my message primarily to gals, because, look, women are socialized under patriarchy to know more about relationships and to want more from relationships. Down deep, we all do because we're humans. But men. Intimacy. Yeah. Chick flick, you know, fine, let me go to work. Let's go to the sports game.

What is his intimacy stuff? Well. Oh, okay. So a lot. The tradition under patriarchy for women is resentful accommodation.

My dear friend Carol Gilligan wrote about this back in the 80s. In adolescence, girls stop telling the truth and they start over, accommodating.

So the traditional, awful women, this over accommodation and resentment, you know, codependence, enabling. I lose myself in relationships and then feminism hit and I consider myself a feminist family therapist for 40 years.

And what happened with early stage feminism is women just shifted from one side of the binary, the polarity, to the other side. Now I'm empowered. Now I'm going to be just like men and I'm going to throw my big swinging dick and you better like.

Well, no, no, look, in my last book, I critiqued patriarchy and individualism. Our culture does not cherish relationships. We cherish the individual. And it's true. Personal growth is personal growth.

Psychotherapy supports the individual. Twelve step women's groups, men's groups, your friends, your dad. Listen to this. Hey, Lauren, I wouldn't put up with that bullshit if I was you.

You better stand up to that one. That's what you get.

You know, I like to say as a couples therapist, the bane of my existence are individual therapists who empower their clients right out of workable relationships. I wouldn't put up with that. Easy for you. To relational empowerment, which goes beyond patriarchy which is new for our culture. Sounds like this.

I was weak, now I'm strong. I'm going to bring my full strength into this relationship. I'm going to stand toe to toe with you brother. This is what I want. I know you love me.

I love you. We're a team. Let's roll up our sleeves. Let's work together. How can this happen for us? For us. Not me versus you, but us.

And women in the west are getting a ton of support. And now men for individual empowerment. I was weak, now I'm strong. Go screw yourself. No, I'm strong. I want you to be strong.

Let's deal with each other. We love each other. Different energy and completely different skills. It's almost non existent in our culture. It's brand new.

Lorin Krenn: 00:13:42

That's really profound. You, you share something very specific around which really, which really stood out to me.

You said something along the lines of a man cannot be powerful and in loving heart centered connection at the same time. Can you tell us what you mean by that one?

Terry Real: 00:14:02

You're good to talk to. You actually know my stuff. Look, man or woman or whatever gender, here's how it goes. Under patriarchy, you can be connected.

That's traditionally feminine, accommodating. Go along to get along, stand by your man. You know you're the wind beneath the great and resentful as hell covertly.

Or you can be powerful, traditionally masculine, dominant. Can do individualistic. My way or the highway. Get it done. However, you can't be both at the same time. Isn't that interesting?

Because under patriarchy, power is power over, not with. So when I step into power, I lose connection. Hey, on man. I'm not putting up with this from you. Boom. There goes the connection.

We teach skills in what I created. We call it relational life therapy. Rlt. Here's one of the umbrella skills. Ready? Loving power.

How to stand up for yourself and cherish the person you're speaking to in the same breath. That's brand new. We don't know how to do it.

It's interesting saying hey Lauren, want to talk to me like that or which is fair or saying hey Lauren, Boby, I want to hear you man. Could you tone it down a little so I can actually listen two different ways of saying the same thing. But the first is about me, me, me, me, me.

The second's about us. Can I give you an example?

Lorin Krenn: 00:15:50

Yes, please.

Terry Real: 00:15:51

I'm going to give you an example and I'm going to go back and deconstruct.

Lorin Krenn: 00:15:55

Great.

Terry Real: 00:15:56

True story. Couple comes to me. And this isn't their main issue, but this is an issue they want to tackle. And people who are watching and listening.

How many of us can relate to this one? The straight hetero normative, this one. Her to him, you're a reckless driver. Him to her, you're overly nervous. Anybody relate to that one?

Hey, I'm a New Yorker. I drive like a deer, okay? And then. So what they get into then is what I call an objectivity battle. Who's right, who's wrong?

Yeah, well, look, you're right. They start to gather their evidence and, you know, argue before. Well, wait a minute. You're reckless. You do this, you do this. You do this.

Shirley thinks you're reckless. What about the copy? No, you're nervous. You got upset about this and that and that, and there you are. This could go on for 40 years. True story.

One session with me. Ready? Her to him. Honey, let's start with that. Change the energy loving power. You don't have to be harsh to be powerful. Honey, I know you love me.

You know what? I. I don't know. Maybe I'm overly sensitive. Maybe I'm the. She takes the whole issue off the table. Is it this or is it that? Honey, maybe I'm always.

I. I don't. But look, when you drive and you're on your own, go ahead. I mean, I worry about you, but it's your life.

When I'm sitting next to you and you're weaving in traffic and tailgating and going above the speed, none of which he denies going about, I get terrified. Maybe I shouldn't, but I do. You. You love me. You don't really want me to be a wreck every time I'm sitting next to you. When you're.

As a favor to me, could you please drive more conservatively so I could be more comfortable? Him to her. This fight has been going on for two years. Him to her. Sure, I could do that. True story.

Lorin Krenn: 00:18:09

Would you say that this might also be connected? That we have to almost prove to the other that our need is valid? We have to prove through objective reality this is the truth and you are wrong.

And it feels really edgy and vulnerable, perhaps for people to lead with. This is what I need from you.

Terry Real: 00:18:31

You know, you're a very smart guy. I like talking to you. And I know. Look, here's a little secret. There's no vulnerability in complaint. There's a lot of.

There's a lot of vulnerability and request. And we try. I said it before. We try and be intimate with Each other, but without any vulnerability. I say this over and over again to people.

Look, you can be intimate or you can protect yourself, but you can't do both at the same time. So take a risk.

Lorin Krenn: 00:19:03

And maybe in the complaint, the rejection doesn't hurt as much as in the requests.

Terry Real: 00:19:10

There's no rejection because you haven't asked for anything. We're just bitching. Yes. You can't be rejected because you're a spear. There's no hand. Okay, now let's take a moment for this.

I want to zoom out and do big picture. And then I want to zoom back into this woman in the car. Big picture. What I'm about to say could save our planet. How's that? Good. Here's what I mean.

Look, I'm a family therapist. I've taught family therapy for 40 years.

The father of family therapy, great man Gregory Bateson, an anthropologist and the husband of Margaret Mead and Basin, said that he devoted his entire life to correcting what he called humankind's philosophical mistake. What's the mistake? That we stand apart from nature and in control of it. Whether the nature we think we're apart from and in control.

Is our bodies optimal? Our partners, our kids? I just did a parenting class. You can't control your children. Tell a child you won't do this and watch what happens.

You can control the environment around the child, but our thinking. I've got to be more positive. We think we control everything. It's all craziness.

So we have to trade in this insanity, which is really the essence of patriarchy. I'm above nature and I can control it, which is masculinity writ large with what I call ecological wisdom. We're not above nature, idiot.

Or we're in it and we depend upon it. Our relationships are our biospheres. We're not above them. Say I should up. Do what I say. We're not below them. Fawning, enabling. Don't set Daddy off.

It's different kind of control, but also control. We're in them. What does that mean? It's not about you versus me. It's not about one of us wins, the other one loses. It's about how.

What does my biosphere need? And for those of you listening, here's a really simple. Ready?

If you tend to ride in the one down, vulnerable, scared, micromanaging your partner, your biosphere needs a little spine. Lean in and take some chances. Tell the truth. If you're used to writing in the one up, you know, irresponsible. I do what I want. Sit down and shut up.

Your biosphere needs to come down, open your heart, and be vulnerable and responsible and connected. But it isn't what Lauren needs. It's what our relationship needs. And this is what I call waking up to ecological wisdom.

We're not above it, we're not below it. We're, you know, I work with really tough guys. That's my b. Are tough assholes.

And routinely I get these, you know, big why do I have to work so hard to please my wife? And I go, knock, knock, you live with her. Ecological wisdom is in my interest to do what works to make this relationship work.

It's not being a wimp, it's being a family man.

Lorin Krenn: 00:23:52

I think one of the myths you also speak to in your work really powerfully is you notice when people try to defend or excuse their flaws or the things they're not willing to work on and to face inside themselves, they might use language, quote, unquote, quote. Well, that's just how I am. And relationships should feel effortless. If there is effort required, it's not the right relationship.

What's the distinction between avoiding the work or truly something being dysfunctional?

Terry Real: 00:24:25

Look, this. There are a number of things that are just wrong.

I mean, if you do, if you play the cards that you were dealt with, modeling your behavior on what you grew up with, modeling your behavior on what the culture teaches you, you're going to be miserable. It's that simple. Half of you are going to be divorced. And of those who are remaining, how many of you are there because of the kids or religion?

Or how many of you are really happy with each other? If you do what you were automatically taught to do, it's not going to go very well. You have to stop and think and learn.

Look, waking up to the biosphere is the map. It isn't you, it isn't me. What does our relationship need? Maybe our relationship needs me to stand down and open up.

Maybe our relationship needs me to stand up and confront you. But it's not about you and me. It's us. What do we need? Okay, once you have the map in relational life therapy.

And please folks, come to terryreal.com, my website. We have courses for the general public. What healthy self esteem looks like, what healthy boundaries look like.

Six essential skills for having a good Relationship. You didn't learn these things. I didn't learn these things.

In fact, my head was full of a lot of nonsense like men don't get told what to do, particularly by women. You don't tell me what to do. That's, that's for yours. I call this the Popeye defense. The cartoon Popeye used to say, I am what I am.

Well, I'm just a guy who has temper. Well, you're just a guy who's going to be divorced. Well, I'm just a guy who, you know, takes care of himself first.

Well, you're a guy whose kids aren't going to talk to him. You know what? One of my great mentors had a sign in their office from a naturalist. I don't know who it is, but here's the quote. It's a great quote.

Nature has neither rewards nor punishments. Nature has consequences. Hey, buddy, you want to step up and learn how to be a more relational human being?

Your body will do better, your heart will do better, your partner will do better, your kids will do better. You don't want to do that. I am what I am. I should just be who I am. Great. See ya.

Let me know when your third wife drags you in and we can talk about it then.

Lorin Krenn: 00:27:09

What I find fascinating is that you have people who put so much effort into their own personal journey and inner work, but when it comes to relational skills, they fall incredibly short. It's almost like, like on one hand they're an immature 10 year old. On the other, they've been doing so much work on themselves.

I think one of the greatest errors in today's world is that we don't bridge the two or go even further and say the spiritual and deepest work is the relational work.

Terry Real: 00:27:38

Hello. It's crazy, but it's our individual anti. We live in a narcissistic, anti, relational, patriarchal, dominant, addictive culture.

And within that culture, we're trying to be lovers like the world has never seen before. I like to say we have filet, minol appetite and hamburger skills. So you want to. You want to stand up for yourself and grow.

The reason why you're dead right? You know, go to the Internet and look up courses that will help you grow as an individual.

How many of you get go to the Internet and look up courses that help you grow as a relationship. Like.005%. Why we don't value relationships in this culture. Personal growth is personal growth. Even the word personal growth is.

Nobody says relational growth. Here's another one. You know I'm a psychotherapist, right? So there's been a big revolution in treating trauma. Great. People are getting healed.

All trauma work happens behind closed doors. Why in rlt? I'll have Lauren do trauma work and I'll have your partner sitting right next to you while you do it.

Are you in a relationship, by the way?

Lorin Krenn: 00:29:08

I'm married.

Terry Real: 00:29:09

Yeah.

Lorin Krenn: 00:29:09

Happily married.

Terry Real: 00:29:10

Happily married. Okay. Woman. I'm a.

Lorin Krenn: 00:29:13

Yes, a woman.

Terry Real: 00:29:15

All right, look, I would have your wife sitting next to you while you turn back and put your. Listened to and formed a relationship with that little boy inside who fights fleas or fawns.

That's your knee jerk response that you learned as a boy that you're bringing into your marriage. When the heat goes on your prefrontal cortex, the thinking part of your brain goes woof and automatic, you know, survival. Fight, flight.

And now we've added fawn fix. That kicks in, by the way. You can pass, but what are you? Fight, fighter or fawn?

Lorin Krenn: 00:30:03

I think that I would go towards defensiveness and defending myself and trying to make the other feel that. That I am right. Like into battle. Fight.

Terry Real: 00:30:18

Yeah. You're a fighter.

Lorin Krenn: 00:30:20

Yes.

Terry Real: 00:30:21

You're a fighter. I'm a fighter. Yeah. Okay.

Lorin Krenn: 00:30:23

And it's brutal to unlearn, but it's the feeling of when the defensiveness, just that small moment of no, I'm not gonna go there. Opening the heart, listening, and having that embodied experience of seeing my wife soften and respond to me in such a beautiful way.

I think it's the essence of the work that you speak about.

Terry Real: 00:30:47

There you go.

Lorin Krenn: 00:30:49

That beauty, that intimacy like you can feel that nothing is more right than that.

Terry Real: 00:30:56

That's it. That's what we're born for. But we have to learn. And here's the thing. Stop. Take a breath. Reach for the. The automatic.

For you, it's defend yourself against the attack. So. Right. So that I call it. Whoosh. Comes up like a wave. Fight, flee. And by the way, you can stand six inches away from somebody and still be fleeing.

That's called stonewalling or fawn, which is fix.

Lorin Krenn: 00:31:32

One quick thing. Sorry here. But the reason why you saw me hesitate is because there are moments when I shut down and go into fleets. It's interesting. It's.

It's predominantly fight, but then there are moments of shutdown. It's interesting. Can you maybe speak to that? Why it's not just one thing and can sometimes differ.

Terry Real: 00:31:53

Yeah. Most of us, I like to say you major in fight, minor in withdrawal. I think that's a good answer.

So, you know, a lot of us have a two step where first, the second step is usually withdrawal. First I try this, and when that doesn't work, I shut down.

Lorin Krenn: 00:32:16

That's it.

Terry Real: 00:32:17

That's very common. Yeah, but let's take that moment where you didn't. That's what I call a moment of relational mindfulness. Second consciousness. I gotta defend myself.

And we don't have to get into details, but I was attacked as a kid and that little boy defended himself. And thank God he did. But I don't want that five year old running my marriage.

So I like to say when our inner children kick up fight, flight, fix, we want to love them, hear them out, put our arms around them and take their sticky hands off the steering wheel. Little Terry, New Jersey fight. Blue collar New Jersey fighter. Great. You can. Nobody's going to mess with you. Thank God. Great. Guess what?

You're in the back seat. Let me deal with my wife. You're going to make a mess of things. And that moment of stopping and thinking and choosing something new, that's blessed.

That's the way out of this mess. It's what my wife Belinda calls relational heroism. When every muscle and nerve in your body is screaming to do what you've always done.

Take a breath, try something different. And then watch what happens when you do. I tell all the people I work with, don't take anything I say on faith. This is instant karma, baby.

Do this and not that. And watch what happens to your partner. Just watch. This works better. Can I tell you a story?

Lorin Krenn: 00:34:09

Yeah, please.

Terry Real: 00:34:10

This is my go to. Okay, so in rlt, there are three parts of us. The part of you that could go. Wait a minute. I don't need to defend myself. Let me listen to my wife.

Oh, my God. Look how wonderful she responds to that. This is great. Okay? That's the prefrontal cortex. That's the thinking part of your brain. It's not automatic.

It's thoughtful. My friend Thomas Ubel, mystic, great spiritual teacher. Derman, lives in Tel Aviv and he has a saying. Urgency is our enemy and breath is our friend.

Take a break. I'm a big fan of breaks. Take a time out. Take a walk around the block. You know, it's centered in the part of you that wants to make things better.

I call it remembering love. And wait a minute. My wife is not the enemy. We're. We're a team. Okay. What do you need, hon?

That moment where you move beyond the automatic, that's the blessing that's available to you. And you're. That's intimacy. So here's a story. I specialize couples on the brink of divorce that no one else has been able to help. That's my.

It's my beat. That and tough guys. So a couple on the brink of divorce. True story. Why He's a liar. She says it lies about everything.

You tell him, those are nice shoes. He has one who'll say they're sneakers when they're not.

And he's the kind of guy, as a therapist, I'm always helped because people do the very thing in front of me. He's the kind of guy, I say, hey, Bill, the sky's blue. And he goes, actually, it looks kind of great. He ain't gonna let me. Okay, so what is he?

He's got a black belt in evasion, this guy, right? That's. That's the all the line. Nobody's gonna pin him down. So I ask a question. If you're not thinking relationally, it sounds brilliant.

But the adaptive child part of us, this is the prefrontal wise adult. Your defenses. His lying is your adaptive child. It's what you learn to do as a kid, to get by. And then underneath that is the wounded child.

Very young, just, oh, my God, don't leave me. Or. Okay. Most of the people I see have lived most of their lives out of this adaptive child. Fight, flight, flee, thinking that that's an adult.

And they do okay in the world, but they're miserable in their home life. Okay, lie. You learn to lie. I teach my students this. Always be respectful of the exquisite intelligence of the adaptive child.

I don't know what your childhood is. I grew up in Camden, New Jersey. I learned to be a fighter. I grew up with a violent father. I fought.

I don't know what would have happened to me if I hadn't fought. I may not even be here. Good for that little fighting. Terry, man, you were a mother. Nobody's gonna. You. You did a good job protecting me.

Thank God for you. I explain this to this liar. I say to him, who tried to control you growing up, Right? If I'm an invader, there's somebody on. Yeah, my father.

Military man. What I ate, what I wore. My friend, how did you deal with this controlling father? He looks at me and smiles. That's resistance. That's help.

I like that smell. He says, you ready? I lied. Dad said, don't play with Henry. I played with Henry. I told him I was playing with John. Smart little boy.

I said, brilliant you. Oh, but I have some news for you. You're not that five year old and your wife is not your father. I have a saying, my friend.

Adaptive then, maladaptive. Now, maybe you need to run your marriage with someone older than that five year old. See ya. That's it. True story.

Two weeks later they come in, hand in hand, all smiles procured, and they were wow. They were wow. I say, okay, there's a tale here. Tell me the tale. Over the weekend, she sends him to the grocery store to get 12 things.

True to form, he comes home with 11. She says to him, where's the pumpernickel? He says, I want the people listening is to feel this. Well, of course they weren't out of pumpernickel.

He forgot it. But he wants to cover his ass. He said, every muscle and nerve in my body was screaming to say they were out of the pumpernickel.

And in this one moment, I thought of you, Terry. We can lend each other our prefrontal cortex. I thought of you.

I looked my wife in the eye, I took a breath and I said, I forgot the goddamn pumpernickel. And she, the true story, burst into tears. And she said, I've been waiting for this moment for 30 years. And he stayed his marriage.

Lorin Krenn: 00:39:41

And I think this also goes back to what we said before about women having enough with certain behavior. Women being at the end of a pattern that is unresolved. Or men as well, of course. But that keeps playing out.

And it keeps playing out until there is no longer tolerance.

Terry Real: 00:39:58

That's right.

Unfortunately, the way most of us, and I'm including women, try and get more of what we want from our relationship is by complaining about what we're not getting. We criticize. And we men are criticism phobic. We're allergic to it. Absolutely. That's the last. So I teach women, be positive.

Hey, Lauren, I love what you're doing. I love this, this and this. By the way, this would work even better as a favor to me. Could you work on doing this instead of that?

Let me help you and listen to this one. You ready? You say, oh, okay. I'll try working on speaking less harshly, for example. I'll try and remember to soften up. That's great. Says your wife.

Ready for this one? Can I help you? What? Who sounds like that in this culture?

I love that you're going to work on being less harsh because there's something I could do to support you in doing that. We're a team. No one knows how. I have to teach people how to do this.

Lorin Krenn: 00:42:13

You talked about it briefly already. You talk about one up, one down. I think one up, you mean grandiosity. One down. For instance, shame.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's something you said about, for instance, if someone tends to kind of very grandiose behavior, dominating I'm better, which of course is a coping mechanism. At a deeper level, if they go one down and they genuinely feel remorse, which is really challenging, that can offer a pathway to repair and healing.

Is that correct based on how you describe it, or can you speak more about that, please?

Terry Real: 00:42:47

It's almost correct, but let me help you.

Lorin Krenn: 00:42:51

Yeah.

Terry Real: 00:42:52

The antidote to one up entitlement, selfishness, superiority, contempt attack is not one down shame, feeling inferior, feeling defective. It's in the middle. Healthy self esteem is in the middle. I'm not better, I'm not worse than anybody else.

What you're describing is exactly what everybody is afraid of, particularly with grandiose men. If I pop them, they go from inflation to deflation. Women are afraid of this. They go from one up grandiosity to one down shame.

And I will have hurt the poor babies. Oh my God, the fragile male ego. And by the way, if I hurt them, they may attack me, they may flee. It ain't going to be pretty.

So let me protect this guy rather than challenge him. No, bad idea. That's patriarchy. That's been going on for thousands of years. Here's a new idea.

I'll be working, let's say I work with Lauren, the defensive fighter, and I go, look, I'm going to teach you how to stop defending yourself and to be compassionate to your wife. And it's going to feel weird, but let's see how it goes. You then go from, wait a minute, I have the right to defend myself.

She's a to, oh my God, I'm such a terrible husband. You go from grandiosity to shame, inflation, deflation. That's what therapists are so afraid of. That's why we don't confront people. It's bullshit.

Here's what I would do. Lauren, I'm looking at you. You get red. You turn. Are you feeling shame right now? Are you feeling like you're a bad guy? Yeah.

Okay, let me explain something here. There's a difference between shame and guilt, shame and remorse. And remember, go to my website, I'll teach you about healthy self esteem.

Self esteem looks like this. I'm a good person. That does not change. I can hold myself in warm regard as an imperfect good person. My behavior was horrible.

I'm a good man who behaved horribly. That's what we try and teach parents with kids. We used to say, don't be a naughty boy. Now we say, you're a good boy. Get that hammer I feel healthy.

Self esteem is feeling proportionally bad about bad behavior. You want someone to feel bad about bad behavior and still holding yourself in warm regard at the same time. I have to teach people this.

So when you go from I'm entitled to defend myself, she's a bitch, to oh my God, I'm a terrible person. Okay, that's shame. Let me teach you.

When you go from entitlement to shame, my friend, you're going from one form of self preoccupation I'm entitled to, to guess what, more self preoccupation. I'm a big shit. She doesn't give a shit about that. Shame does nobody any good. Guilt, remorse goes out to the person you hurt.

I don't feel bad about me. I feel bad for you, honey. I hurt you. What can I do to help you feel better? So what I want you to do, hypothetical client one.

I want you to come up from shame into remorse. As my kids say, get over yourself. You're a good person. That was shitty behavior. Go talk to the person you hurt. It's hard to get past shame.

I'll give you 60 seconds. Ready? Go. Good. Now turn to her and talk to her. And I teach people the difference between shame and remorse and how to move.

This is how we learn to be better human beings.

Lorin Krenn: 00:47:06

Would you say that shame could actually be very similar? Like grandiosity, even be used kind of as a. Almost like weaponized against the other person? One is, I am better than you. I'm superior.

I do whatever I want. And the other is, I'm so bad, I'm so useless. Because as you said, then the other person wants to protect the little boy or the little girl.

It's almost like it can be very manipulative.

Terry Real: 00:47:28

I literally have had domestic violence cases where a guy will. Will slap his partner, push her around, and then I feel so bad about what I did to you. Come here and come here and comfort me. Wait a minute.

I just slapped you and now you're supposed to be comforting me? That's grandiosity. That's selfishness.

Lorin Krenn: 00:47:51

Yeah. And this distinction you make between remorse and shame, because feeling into the pain of the other, that's real accountability, isn't it?

And that's real maturity as well. Because you're saying, I messed up, I caused pain. I'm not. And he's like this, I'm not a bad person at heart, but I caused pain. No, no defense. No.

It wasn't my intention. I caused pain.

Terry Real: 00:48:18

Here, here's the thing.

Lorin Krenn: 00:48:20

Yeah.

Terry Real: 00:48:20

We go even further Ready?

Lorin Krenn: 00:48:22

Yeah.

Terry Real: 00:48:24

Yeah. I feel bad that I caused pain. What can I do for you? Park your freaking ego at the door. It's not about you.

If you feel badly, you call somebody pain or why don't you get over yourself and pay attention to them? Then if you're feeling so bad about it, let's put it in a paycheck. This is.

Lorin Krenn: 00:48:45

Most people don't speak about this, Terry. It's crazy to me, but it's, it's.

Terry Real: 00:48:50

Revolution for the whole now. Speaking of which. So men don't have healthy self esteem. You know, under patriarchy, healthy self esteem comes from the inside out. It's God's gift.

I have worth. My worth is no better or worse than anybody else. I can't earn it. I can't subtract. Just is this is the essence of democracy, of medical ethics.

We're all equal. Okay, so that's healthy self esteem. Inside out. We don't have that. We have outside in. So for. And there are three forms.

Attribute based esteem, which our whole culture. I have worth because of what I have. I have a trophy wife. I have big muscles. Other based esteem.

I have worth because you think I do, which is really big for women. It's love addiction. I don't love me, so my partner loves me when they turn away from me. I, I, okay, And then this is the big one for men.

Performance based esteem. I have worth because of what I can do. I can close this deal. I can give my wife an orgasm. I can, you know, I can hit this homer.

Here's what happens in the traditional world of men. You're one up or one down. You're a winner or a loser. And there's no platform for intimacy there. So if I'm a winner, screw you. I'll do what I want.

If I'm a loser, I'm worthless. You come to me, I'm going to make us a gay relationship. You come to me and you say, terry, you really up. My feelings really got hurt when you.

Okay, I'm being confronted with my imperfection. I didn't do a good performance. What happens to my self esteem? Right into the toilet. And like we just went through, I don't know how to feel remorse.

I only feel shameless grandiosity or shame. So if I let in that I wasn't perfect, that what you're saying about me is right, oh, I go into shame. It feels terrible. So what do I do?

I protect myself from that shame by warding off your criticism. What was that word you used earlier? Defensiveness healthy self esteem. Listen to this.

Having some modicum of recovery, we call it of health allows us to be accountable. If your self esteem is riding on your performance and your wife says you didn't perform very well. Yes, I did.

I don't know what you're talking about because I can't afford to let it in if I move into healthy self esteem. Oh, okay. I screwed up. I'm imperfect just like everybody else. What do you need so these.

You cannot be accountable and have unhealthy self esteem at the same time. You can't afford it. So this is where all these things come come together. And also stepping into accountability can teach you healthy self esteem.

I can screw up. She still loves me. I guess I'm okay. Okay. But embracing our imperfection as men really moves beyond everything we learned as boys.

Lorin Krenn: 00:52:38

One specific argument you hear a lot in couples is you always make it about yourself. Might that be related to what we're talking about right now? That one up, one down, no platform.

Either you make it about your shame or you make it about your grandiosity. Ultimately it's the preoccupation with myself. It's about my experience. And you, you need to regulate me right now because me, me, me. And I'm in pain.

Terry Real: 00:53:08

Yeah, it's crazy. You know, I'm tired of talking about me. Why don't you talk about me for a while? Listen. Learning.

So there's a lot of ink being spilled in my field about how narcissism is untreatable. RLT treats. So called narcissist. Breakfast, lunch and dinner. I don't like the word narcissist. I talk about grandiosity and selfishness.

And you know what I can teach people to open their hearts and learn. For example, Bill, when your partner is disgruntled with you. Whenever we're faced with a disgruntled partner, our go to is two orientations.

These are automatic. One, accuracy. That's true. That's not true. That's true. That's not true. That's true. That's not true. Well, you have this, but I have that. Two, me.

I can't believe I have to put up in this from you yet. Okay, trade in those two for this one. Ready? Compassionate curiosity about your partner's subjective experience. Is it accurate? Who cares?

It's my partner's experience. I'm sorry, honey. I love you. That sounds like that feels bad. Tell me more about it. Really? Yeah. Do I. This is what I hear you say? Do I get it? Yeah.

Well, you're right. I did do that. I'm sorry. I can. This is gold. You guys out there ready to your women. I can feel. I can understand why you feel like that.

Lorin Krenn: 00:54:57

Gold.

Terry Real: 00:54:58

I can understand why you feel like that. I'm gonna work on it.

Lorin Krenn: 00:55:03

What about people who perform this? Because this is something we see in our culture today more, which is, I suppose, fairly new.

But people who are so acquainted with, you know all sorts of how to communicate how. But when, when vulnerability is performed, when it's. How do we cross that bridge between. I perform. I understand how you feel that way to embody it.

Like feeling it in the heart and really meaning it. How do we cross that bridge, Terry?

Terry Real: 00:55:30

Yeah. I call that using your skills from your adaptive child. And you know what? You're not. You never fool anybody.

I say to Belinda, hey, Belinda, I've got some feedback to you, or do you want. I'm using all the right words. You want my feedback? No. Energy trumps. People will feel where you are.

Lorin Krenn: 00:55:54

Exactly.

Terry Real: 00:55:56

Get into the part of you that remembers love. This is not the enemy. I live with her and it's in my interest to make things better.

My interests when you're, when you're there, if you can say that you're in your prefrontal cortex, that automatic child. I better defend myself. I gotta shut this down and yeah, I gotta fix her. No. Okay. I'm centered. Let me see what I can do.

Lorin Krenn: 00:56:27

I, I, I could. I, I would love to ask you a million more questions, but I'm aware of time.

Terry Real: 00:56:31

Yeah.

Lorin Krenn: 00:56:32

What I do want to ask you here is the final question is you already mentioned it briefly before, but where can people find your powerful work? And we're going to of course link that in the episode descriptions everywhere.

Terry Real: 00:56:41

Yeah. Two things. My latest book is called Us, I'm very proud to say a forward written by Burr Springsteen, which is pretty cool.

And that's about relationships. And my first book was pretty damn good back in the 90s about men.

And you know what A selling as well 30 years later than it did when it first came out. It's still.

Lorin Krenn: 00:57:07

I think you opened the door with that book. You opened the door and many. You gave language to something that everyone realized something was happening, but people didn't have the words for it.

Terry Real: 00:57:17

You know what, what I said in that book is the imposition of this role. Stoic, unfeeling, invulnerable, selfish. We don't ask for this as boys. It comes to us whether we want it or not. And it's damaging.

And you know, the feminist. Oh my God, you're oppressing women. Yeah, well, patriarchy oppresses us too. It's a stray jacket. Let's break out of it together.

That's what that book was. So it's called I don't want to talk about it. Us. But I really want people to go to my website.

Just T-E-R r y terryreal r e a l.com and we have really nice courses on how to have a good relationship with this. What I was talking about, how to have good self esteem. What a good boundary is like.

Lorin Krenn: 00:58:13

Really, really appreciate our time here together. Thank you for being here.

Terry Real: 00:58:16

Thank you.

Lorin Krenn: 00:58:17

If you want to learn more about Terry's powerful work, just click on the show notes or episode description. Thank you for being here and watching or listening to this episode. It is a true honor to have you here and to be of service on your path.

If you haven't subscribed yet, subscribe now so you never miss an episode.

Terry Real: 00:58:37

Thank you.