Avoidant Attachment, "Bad Boys", and Conscious Love, with Jillian Turecki
Unresolved fears, past wounds, and unrealistic expectations plague many relationships. To create healthier relationships, we need to look inward.
Working on a relationship means working on ourselves – understanding our fears, taking responsibility for our behaviour, and being open to growth and vulnerability.
Jillian Turecki is a renowned relationship coach, teacher and writer who helps people build and maintain exceptional relationships. She brings extensive experience from her background in somatic experiencing and thousands of hours of relationship coaching.
It Begins With You – Jillian’s book
Follow @jillianturecki on Instagram
Mentioned in this episode:
Healing Your Relationship with the Masculine
A 4-week immersive program for women, starting 2nd March 2025
Healing Your Attachment Style
Create deeper relationships and more abundance
Transcript
Our guest today is Jillian Turecki, a world renowned relationship
Speaker:coach, teacher and writer.
Speaker:In this episode, we explore the myth of the one, does the one really exist,
Speaker:or is it a construct that holds us back from experiencing true love?
Speaker:Jillian breaks this down with profound insight and clarity.
Speaker:We also explore safe versus unsafe attraction, how trauma and past
Speaker:wounds shape what we're drawn to, and the journey of transforming unsafe
Speaker:attraction into something secure, authentic, and deeply fulfilling.
Speaker:And then we take a hard look at attachment dynamics, the avoid
Speaker:and the anxious and insecure women being attracted to the bad boy,
Speaker:what is healthy masculine energy?
Speaker:Jillian sheds light on these patterns with practical, relatable
Speaker:examples that will help you recognize yourself in the conversation and
Speaker:take actionable steps towards change.
Speaker:This is not just a conversation, it's a roadmap for anyone navigating
Speaker:the complexities of relationships.
Speaker:Whether you're struggling, healing, or seeking to deepen your
Speaker:connection, get ready to go deep, get practical, and leave this episode
Speaker:with new tools and perspectives that just might change your life.
Speaker:Welcome to the Masculine and Feminine Dynamics podcast.
Speaker:My name is Lorin Krenn and I'm a coach, author and hypnotherapist.
Speaker:I help you to understand masculine and feminine dynamics.
Speaker:Let's dive in.
Speaker:Jillian Turecki is a relationship coach, teacher and writer, deeply
Speaker:committed to helping others build and rebuild exceptional relationships.
Speaker:On Instagram alone, she has almost 3 million.
Speaker:Followers.
Speaker:Her work focuses on guiding people to connect with themselves and their
Speaker:partners in profound meaningful ways.
Speaker:Through her studies in I integrative yoga therapy, somatic experiencing,
Speaker:and thousands of hours of relationship coaching, Jillian has become a leader
Speaker:in helping individuals navigate the complexities of love and connection.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:Well, thank you so much.
Speaker:That's a beautiful introduction.
Speaker:I really appreciate that.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:You're very, very welcome.
Speaker:And now to dive in and serve our listeners as powerfully as possible.
Speaker:Something that you mentioned that I read is working on a relationship
Speaker:means working on ourselves, and we share very similar views here.
Speaker:Could you elaborate on how personal growth and relationship
Speaker:work are deeply interconnected?
Speaker:Yes, um.
Speaker:So there's nothing, I mean, all relationships do this, but to me, and
Speaker:I'm sure you agree, there's nothing quite like a romantic relationship
Speaker:that is going to put a mirror in front of us and, and ask of us that we
Speaker:confront certain aspects of ourselves, certain conditioning beliefs and
Speaker:behavior that needs to be addressed.
Speaker:And so oftentimes when we have to work on a relationship,
Speaker:like what does it mean to, you know, work on a relationship?
Speaker:It means to work on the things, to address the things that are getting in
Speaker:the way of intimacy, emotional intimacy.
Speaker:And a lot of times what's getting in the way, what's happening when there is a
Speaker:disconnect between two people who are in a relationship, it starts with something
Speaker:that's going on inside ourselves.
Speaker:It's it's fear.
Speaker:Fear of not being enough, or maybe it's communication skills or lack thereof.
Speaker:It's our ego, you know, wanting to be good enough or fearing that
Speaker:we're not gonna be good enough.
Speaker:And so we do that thing that we always do when we, we don't, when
Speaker:we feel like we're not good enough.
Speaker:You know, for some people that's pulling away, for other people, that's
Speaker:getting angry, for other people, that's, you know, um, disengaging
Speaker:from the relationship and putting more of their energy into things outside
Speaker:of the relationship that doesn't need, need to be another person.
Speaker:It could be work.
Speaker:And so, um, a relationship is only as strong and robust and
Speaker:healthy and close, as both people are healthy, strong, and robust.
Speaker:It's like, it's really about we don't have to be perfectly
Speaker:healthy, whole people to make a relationship great, but we do have
Speaker:to be a hundred percent committed.
Speaker:And understanding what's actually getting in the way of us being totally
Speaker:committed, and what are some of the barriers, psychological, emotional
Speaker:barriers that we have to closeness.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:I believe you mentioned that you said, we don't heal in isolation.
Speaker:Yeah, we don't.
Speaker:And I, I think that's so powerful because it's like we can tell
Speaker:ourselves, or we're feeling free, we're feeling good, we are, we're healing.
Speaker:We can even tell ourselves the story, I'm healing, I'm feeling great, but
Speaker:it's all happening in isolation.
Speaker:And then the moment we enter relationship, we become aware
Speaker:of all that we've been avoiding.
Speaker:There's nothing like a romantic relationship that is going to
Speaker:remind you of how fucked up you are.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And and it's, it's that, it's that grace as well, right?
Speaker:Having grace for ourselves.
Speaker:' Cause it's like, and, and you talk about that as well, being that there is no
Speaker:such thing as being perfectly healed.
Speaker:So, would you say there are certain things that can only
Speaker:be healed in relationship?
Speaker:Vulnerability is such an important part of a relationship.
Speaker:It's the allowing of you to be fully seen by the person who
Speaker:you're in a relationship with.
Speaker:And so many of us fear, it used to be well, you know,
Speaker:men feared it most because vulnerability is weakness for men.
Speaker:But now we're, we're seeing just as many women, or almost as many
Speaker:women who are afraid of it as well.
Speaker:Um, I think for women or for the feminine, it's
Speaker:more like, I've been hurt.
Speaker:I feel unsafe, so I'm only gonna be vulnerable if you make me feel safe,
Speaker:as opposed to part of what's gonna create safety in the relationship is you
Speaker:taking the risk to be vulnerable even before you feel a hundred percent safe.
Speaker:And so where the healing that is possible in a romantic relationship
Speaker:that I don't believe is nearly as possible if we're single, is allowing
Speaker:ourselves to be fully seen by someone.
Speaker:We all enter a relationship with some sort of unconscious
Speaker:fear of not being good enough.
Speaker:And you know, I really think that two people are right for each other.
Speaker:One of the things that make them really right for each other is that
Speaker:they are, they really believe in one another and they're, they both are
Speaker:affirmed at how enough they are as human beings by being with each other.
Speaker:That doesn't mean that you don't challenge your partner when there
Speaker:is a bad habit that they have or behavior that needs to change,
Speaker:but at the core, you are affirming to each other that you are both
Speaker:enough and have value as you are.
Speaker:And I don't, and it's you that's hard to get elsewhere.
Speaker:it's almost like a decision, because if there is no perfect moment,
Speaker:as you just mentioned, really powerfully, then it's a decision
Speaker:we get to make inside ourselves.
Speaker:Hey, I, I choose to be, or I choose to affirm that I'm good enough
Speaker:or far enough in my healing to allow myself to be fully seen.
Speaker:I agree with you.
Speaker:I do very much think it's a choice.
Speaker:I, I think so many things are really boiled down to choice.
Speaker:Like, I'm gonna choose to believe this right now, or I'm gonna choose
Speaker:to, to your point, trust that I've done enough work on myself and the
Speaker:rest is just going to be revealed in the relationship, and I'm open to it.
Speaker:I'm open to learning.
Speaker:Let's talk about the one.
Speaker:I know you talk about this and perhaps we have slightly different
Speaker:opinions about this, but based on your perspective, number one, does
Speaker:the one exist because of course there are so many cultural myths
Speaker:fueled by romanticized ideals.
Speaker:There's so much misleading content about twin flames, trauma bonds, it's
Speaker:all mixed up, it's all a wild mess.
Speaker:Get your ex back strategies.
Speaker:When someone runs away, then you chase them and all of that.
Speaker:What is your perspective of the one?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's, it's exactly what you're saying.
Speaker:The one has so much meaning attached to it, and the meaning that's attached
Speaker:to it is really what I challenge most, which is that there's only
Speaker:this one person who's going to come into your life and when you meet
Speaker:them, everything in your life is gonna fall into place and you're
Speaker:gonna have a perfect relationship.
Speaker:Whereas I believe there's the one who was the one for you at 17.
Speaker:There's the one who some people married and it was amazing for
Speaker:three years, and then it wasn't.
Speaker:You are still gonna have to confront yourself.
Speaker:You're still gonna have to face your demons.
Speaker:You're still gonna have to put in the work.
Speaker:And the cultural significance and meaning that is held within this
Speaker:concept of the one implies strongly that this person, when they come into your
Speaker:life, is not going to challenge you.
Speaker:They're just going to emancipate you, you know, from, from whatever
Speaker:like your, your, your stuff is.
Speaker:And because of that, they are actually going to make you happy.
Speaker:They are going to fulfill you because when you meet the one, you are then
Speaker:fulfilled, whereas that's not true.
Speaker:There is no one who can fulfill you solely.
Speaker:There are people who can add to your fulfillment.
Speaker:There are people who can make your life so much better.
Speaker:But whatever disconnect a person might feel from their purpose, whatever
Speaker:disconnect they might feel from their bodies, whatever disconnect
Speaker:they might feel from their mom or their father, their brother or their
Speaker:sister, their community, that person in your life who you love, who you
Speaker:called the one can't fix that for you.
Speaker:And by them being in your life, they're not gonna fix it.
Speaker:But they can support you as you pursue these things.
Speaker:They can make the road a little bit easier, but happiness is an inside job.
Speaker:So what I'm hearing here is you are challenging these kind of expectations
Speaker:and wrong associations around the one where people think, oh, this person
Speaker:is going to fulfill me, this person is going to fix me, this person is going
Speaker:to save me, and then it doesn't happen.
Speaker:And this kind of holding onto this false hope is almost putting that healing
Speaker:and that inside job that you mentioned outside of ourselves, we're giving
Speaker:someone else the responsibility, which of course, as you described, described,
Speaker:and you know, is a recipe for suffering.
Speaker:It is a recipe for suffering.
Speaker:And also you, you used the word expectations.
Speaker:It's expectations that destroys relationships.
Speaker:It really does.
Speaker:I mean, of course we're gonna have some expectation, but
Speaker:the bigger our expectations, the lower our appreciation.
Speaker:Then we're just like placing all this expectation and guess what?
Speaker:Then you realize that the one is flawed and is on a similar
Speaker:level of consciousness as you.
Speaker:You know, there's no like angel with this angelic like, or god-like
Speaker:level of consciousness that's coming into your life that's going
Speaker:to like, you know, lead you to your, your level of consciousness.
Speaker:Also the danger here around trauma bonding, and people being
Speaker:drawn to kind of unsafe intimacy or a very unsafe attraction.
Speaker:You talk about that level of unsafe chemistry, not settling for that, not
Speaker:chasing that, specifically when there is so much confusion around that.
Speaker:Then of course, these kind of.
Speaker:Ideas and cultural myths, they kind of aggravate that trauma even more.
Speaker:So it's so important to challenge that.
Speaker:Now, leading into that, people who have experienced unsafe emotional
Speaker:intimacy or physical intimacy, what advice would you give them?
Speaker:On their path of number one, attracting a partner that is secure
Speaker:and safe, and also recognizing that?
Speaker:Because that's not always that easy.
Speaker:So it's first just getting real with yourself about some of your patterns
Speaker:and you know what these relationships kind of brought into your life.
Speaker:Did they bring a lot of chaos into your life?
Speaker:You know, we have to be able to say, how have I been
Speaker:complicit in my own suffering?
Speaker:Where have I played a role in creating circumstances in my life, such as these
Speaker:relationships that I say I do not want?
Speaker:And I wonder why I've been in these relationships.
Speaker:And it can be a very, very confusing, this is the question
Speaker:that is asked of me most often.
Speaker:Why if I, you know, have my life together?
Speaker:Am I in this relationship?
Speaker:You know, or why, why can't I seem to let this person go even though
Speaker:I know they're not right for me?
Speaker:And it's layered, right?
Speaker:It's layered.
Speaker:It could be because you're lonely.
Speaker:It could be because you're bored.
Speaker:It could be because the game that you play with this person is a game you
Speaker:need to grow out of and grow up out of.
Speaker:Maybe you're tolerating less than you deserve, for example, in a relationship
Speaker:because you don't know where the line is supposed to be drawn as far
Speaker:as your tolerance, because it wasn't modeled to you by your mom or your dad.
Speaker:So you just saw them tolerating a lot.
Speaker:And so the line of where to draw between what is tolerable versus
Speaker:intolerable is very, very, very blurry.
Speaker:And so we have to start to kind of ask ourselves these questions.
Speaker:We have to start to do that necessary self-examination.
Speaker:And to understand, you know, a lot of women will be, find
Speaker:themselves very attracted to the quote unquote bad boy, right?
Speaker:That, that archetype.
Speaker:Well, why, you know, we're drawn to the bad boy.
Speaker:Because how they are depicted in film and whatnot, they're
Speaker:going to protect you.
Speaker:They're strong, they're very masculine.
Speaker:And that's, that's it for, for the feminine that's a huge turn on.
Speaker:But in reality, in the real world, not in the movies, in the real world,
Speaker:the bad boy is actually very weak and narcissistic and isn't going
Speaker:to serve you like a strong man is.
Speaker:He just wants to take from you.
Speaker:So a lot of women who typically go for that need to understand sort of
Speaker:redefine and re-understand and relearn and rewire and, and all of that, what it
Speaker:really means for a man to be masculine.
Speaker:And that you could meet that, you know, bad guy, whatever, and still
Speaker:be like, oh, he's hot, but still have the, the discipline and the wisdom.
Speaker:'Cause at first it's gonna take discipline.
Speaker:And then as you mature and you've been around the block a few times,
Speaker:and you know what being in that kind of relationship does to
Speaker:you, and your priorities change as you get older, then it's not
Speaker:gonna require so much discipline.
Speaker:But in the beginning it might be like, yeah, but I'm not going there.
Speaker:I don't want that.
Speaker:I can acknowledge that I, that I, that I'm attracted to this
Speaker:person, or I think they're hot and I can still make the decision
Speaker:to not pursue anything with them.
Speaker:I mean, we're gonna be attracted to loads of people.
Speaker:Just because you love someone doesn't mean you're not gonna be
Speaker:attracted to someone else, but you have, you, you have the wisdom
Speaker:and the self-control to be like, yeah, that's an attractive person.
Speaker:And maybe in a completely different world where I wasn't in a relationship
Speaker:and in love, maybe I pursue that, but No, no, I'm not going there.
Speaker:Like, we're always gonna have to make those kind of choices in life;.
Speaker:So it's about understanding, it's a lot of learning, rewiring, understanding
Speaker:your family of origin, and then making the choice to say, you know
Speaker:what, I'm not gonna do that anymore.
Speaker:And, and when it comes to like unhealthy chemistry.
Speaker:We can't play the role of the victim.
Speaker:We have to say I'm co-creating this sort of like addictive trauma
Speaker:bond between me and this person.
Speaker:It's not just them, it's me.
Speaker:So let me focus on healing me.
Speaker:The example you gave around the, around the bad boy.
Speaker:Is almost like the bad boy is the fantasy, but a man who is safe,
Speaker:who is present, a man who is truly committed and consistent, he's
Speaker:what the heart truly desires.
Speaker:So almost taking this to a spiritual level, we can almost distinguish, one
Speaker:is the fantasy, that's kind of the biological attraction, and in spiritual
Speaker:terms, perhaps kind of on a mind level.
Speaker:And the other is a deeper desire that is within us.
Speaker:And, and, and dropping into that and being able to, to, at the
Speaker:beginning, discipline and but specifically discern between the two.
Speaker:Yes, to differentiate and to discern between the two, very, very wise.
Speaker:Point and look.
Speaker:Fantasies are free, they're fun.
Speaker:But to be able to say that's a fantasy, that's actually not
Speaker:something that's rooted in reality or even something that I want..
Speaker:And so that's why we have to understand that when we're watching
Speaker:some movies that we understand that this is sort of like the fantasy,
Speaker:and to have a little bit of fun with it perhaps, but to realize that that
Speaker:translated in real life doesn't work.
Speaker:And it's almost like the identification with that as well.
Speaker:Because when our level of consciousness is, and this, there's no judgment
Speaker:there, but when we are at a level of consciousness where we've got a fantasy
Speaker:and we follow that immediately, that speaks to the lack of discipline you
Speaker:are referring to because essentially we have no discipline with ourselves.
Speaker:We're just following blindly whatever comes up, which also
Speaker:does not make us safe partners.
Speaker:And you know, you know you're growing and it's interesting because this
Speaker:is just a funny, I think a fun fact.
Speaker:You know, I like all kinds of film and I like all kinds of literature.
Speaker:And even though I teach a lot about sort of waking people up from this sort
Speaker:of hypnosis that romanticism has sort of put us in, I'm kind of a romantic
Speaker:at heart and I like kind of like silly girly stuff on TV and stuff like that.
Speaker:Like I like dark stuff and I like the silly girly stuff.
Speaker:And when I like, it's as I've kind of like matured in my own understanding
Speaker:of this, it's interesting to see which male characters on screen I'm
Speaker:attracted to now versus what I was attracted to when I was younger.
Speaker:And that's really interesting.
Speaker:And it's always gonna be the man who's just like committed, like
Speaker:deeply committed and present.
Speaker:Whereas before it's like.
Speaker:Is he gonna beat someone up for me?
Speaker:You know, like that kind of thing.
Speaker:I also think that something that's going on a lot in the zeitgeist right
Speaker:now, which I think is related to our work and related to our conversation
Speaker:today, is this idea of, you know, what it means to sort of be high value.
Speaker:Oh, I don't even, I don't even like the word as much to be Honest.
Speaker:I, I don't like it.
Speaker:Same.
Speaker:me crazy.
Speaker:And this idea of like, I'm looking for a high value man, or I'm
Speaker:looking for a high value woman.
Speaker:And I hate the word high value, but if we're just gonna use it for
Speaker:just an example here, there's what about you becoming that person
Speaker:versus just looking for that person?
Speaker:And so bringing this full circle to your original question, like how
Speaker:working, you know, a relationship is really about our relationship with
Speaker:ourselves and personal development, we have to be equally focused on who
Speaker:we have to become then we are on the kind of partner that we wanna attract.
Speaker:Like, are you someone who people that you want wanna be with.
Speaker:What needs to change in you?
Speaker:What needs to open in you?
Speaker:And, and that's so much more powerful than writing a list
Speaker:of what someone desires.
Speaker:This is kind of taking the work at a much deeper level and looking
Speaker:at the places that need to, that need to shift and change within
Speaker:ourselves to enable that reality.
Speaker:Something I've heard you talk about as well about this kind
Speaker:of cultural obsession with why.
Speaker:Why did they cheat?
Speaker:Why did they ghost me?
Speaker:How could they do this to me?
Speaker:I'm sure you see this all the time.
Speaker:I see it all the time.
Speaker:Why, why, why Give me an answer.
Speaker:And yet.
Speaker:Rarely does the answer, even if there is the perfect answer.
Speaker:Rarely does it truly bring peace.
Speaker:What would you say to someone who is stuck in this obsessive
Speaker:cycle of why, why, why, if I only understand, then I will feel at peace?
Speaker:You know, when it's cheating and it's a marriage, you wanna understand the
Speaker:why, because if you are trying to work on your marriage and stay together,
Speaker:you have to understand the why.
Speaker:But let's just say it's someone who's, you know, giving you
Speaker:breadcrumbs of attention or they broke up with you, or you've been
Speaker:like, only with them for six months.
Speaker:Like my husband from, I was married many, many years ago as
Speaker:part of like what's in my book.
Speaker:And the way that he ended things with me was horrible.
Speaker:It was like over a text.
Speaker:Just absolutely horrible.
Speaker:And I became obsessed with that, wanting to understand why.
Speaker:And what I had to do was shift the focus on myself.
Speaker:And trying to understand the messiness of another person's mind, of an of
Speaker:another person's head is impossible.
Speaker:It's like, why did they ghost you?
Speaker:Why did they do that?
Speaker:Well, because they don't feel good enough, because they're weak, because
Speaker:they're scared, because, you know, they, um, they have bad character
Speaker:because they have, they're, they're battling a demon inside themselves
Speaker:it's so big that has Absolutely.
Speaker:It's not, it's bigger than you.
Speaker:It's like, not even about you, you know, it's all these things.
Speaker:But if you can turn the analyzation towards yourself and just say,
Speaker:okay, why did I stay in this?
Speaker:Why did I tolerate this?
Speaker:Why am I so sad about this ending with someone who I only
Speaker:knew for a couple of weeks?
Speaker:What am I learning from this?
Speaker:So, yeah, it's, it's really very difficult and it's very hard to talk
Speaker:someone out of the obsessing stage of it, but you're never gonna, you're
Speaker:never gonna figure out your ex anyway.
Speaker:And, and to your point, once you do, it's the pain's
Speaker:actually not gonna go away.
Speaker:To your other point that we will never understand the messiness of someone
Speaker:else's mind, I love that, and it's, it also reminds me specifically when
Speaker:people find themselves stuck with, in, in, with a narcissist, ultimately,
Speaker:because especially there, this becomes aggravated and amplified to a degree and
Speaker:it's, it's almost like, hey, let's slow down, you cannot understand this person
Speaker:because number one, you don't think like them, you don't act like them.
Speaker:You treat others differently.
Speaker:What makes you think that you could ever understand where they're coming from?
Speaker:Yeah, it's like trying to understand, you know, a hundred
Speaker:percent your dog who can't speak.
Speaker:It's like, you know, you're trying to go into the mind of your canine.
Speaker:It's like it's a different species.
Speaker:Definitely.
Speaker:For sure.
Speaker:But you, what you said something really reminded me of something
Speaker:interesting, which is, um, when we're in a relationship with someone, let's,
Speaker:like shelving, narcissism, let's say you're in the right relationship,
Speaker:you're in a relationship with someone who, who is different, like they
Speaker:grew up differently from you, um, they might be a different gender
Speaker:than you, they have their own sort of blueprint and perspective of the world.
Speaker:And I do think that part of what makes a relationship strong is when
Speaker:two people are intently invested in understanding the other person.
Speaker:And that said, we're never gonna fully understand another person anyway, 'cause
Speaker:we can barely understand ourselves.
Speaker:And it's an incredible empathy and compassion in there.
Speaker:It's almost like the highest level of empathy.
Speaker:Hey, I, I can't relate to your pain right now, or to what's coming up
Speaker:for you, but instead of shutting down, instead of withdrawing,
Speaker:instead of trying to make the other person feel wrong or even dismissing
Speaker:what they're experiencing, it's but I love you so much that I'm,
Speaker:that I will give my very best to understand where you're coming from.
Speaker:And it's almost like what you're describing, understanding, I can
Speaker:almost visualize it right now as we're speaking, as this bridge.
Speaker:Like there is one person with their experience and their pain, there is the
Speaker:other person with their experience, and understanding creates almost the bridge
Speaker:and the connection from heart to heart.
Speaker:And the love can flow even though both have a have a different experience.
Speaker:And I, and I think it's also important, like something you said
Speaker:that really reminds me of your work, which is that, because, you know,
Speaker:you brought up trauma bonds and, you know, childhood and stuff like that.
Speaker:There's so many different roads to healing, and I think that sometimes it
Speaker:doesn't mean you have to go to therapy for years to heal your attachment style.
Speaker:Sometimes it's like, so many men, as I'm sure you know, struggle with avoidance
Speaker:in their romantic relationships.
Speaker:Maybe not in life in general.
Speaker:They could be like very, very, very committed non avoidant
Speaker:people in, in, in the world.
Speaker:But in their romantic relationships, men tend to, um, hide their
Speaker:feelings and their shame and, and, and go into avoidance.
Speaker:And that man who struggles with it doesn't necessarily
Speaker:need to be in therapy necess, and I say that necessarily.
Speaker:He could just learn the principles of presence and stepping into his own
Speaker:power and learning how to be vulnerable.
Speaker:And that could heal it.
Speaker:This is why I'm so passionate about men's work ,specifically
Speaker:because sometimes I would have a man with a, in some cases, a
Speaker:thousand hours or more of therapy.
Speaker:He would come to me and in a very short amount of time, we create a
Speaker:breakthrough that just hasn't happened.
Speaker:And that's not because I'm a magician, but it's simply because
Speaker:this person needed a different tool.
Speaker:And I always like to say, for the person who wants to understand
Speaker:conceptually their childhood trauma, who wants to begin this journey of
Speaker:understanding where their wounding might come from, therapy is amazing.
Speaker:Absolutely amazing.
Speaker:When we're looking for these embodied shifts, it might not
Speaker:always be the right resource..
Speaker:It's the change.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it also, you know, sometimes you have to have a conversation
Speaker:with mom or dad that's really difficult to have, you know?
Speaker:I've worked with a lot of men who didn't feel good enough
Speaker:for their father, you know?
Speaker:And once they had a conversation with their father, like it was like
Speaker:something, you know, it was like, and a conversation, it was usually me there
Speaker:mediating, but, or like overseeing it, but so many things can shift.
Speaker:But yes, you're totally right.
Speaker:Could you elaborate a little bit more on that?
Speaker:When, when people or couples come to you and they, and there, there is such an
Speaker:elephant in the, which usually always is right, there is that elephant in.
Speaker:Let's talk about your mother.
Speaker:Oh, well, I don't want to, but, can you share a little
Speaker:bit more about that please?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think that, um, it's very important.
Speaker:That two people who are in a romantic relationship, a marriage, something
Speaker:comparable, that they know how the pain of their childhood kind
Speaker:of manifests in their adulthood.
Speaker:I think they need to know what each other struggles with and you know, what,
Speaker:what life was like for them as a child.
Speaker:Because people can get really nasty.
Speaker:You know, they can say, well, you are just like this and blah, blah,
Speaker:blah, and do all this blaming.
Speaker:It's like, no, no, no.
Speaker:Can you understand that, um, because her mother left when she was two years
Speaker:old that there is an abandonment wound there that you need to know about
Speaker:and have some sensitivity around?
Speaker:And she has to also recognize that just because that happened, that doesn't
Speaker:mean everyone's going to abandon her.
Speaker:Or maybe that happening, which is terrible, gave her strength
Speaker:and resilience that she never would've had if her mom was there.
Speaker:So this idea of, 'cause we're responsible for ourselves
Speaker:in a relationship being the only thing, no, no.
Speaker:We're responsible actually for each other.
Speaker:That's what a relationship is.
Speaker:And, and we're responsible.
Speaker:We have to have accountability.
Speaker:But if you can have accountability and your partner can be like, you know what,
Speaker:like my girl, like her mother left the family when she was two years old and
Speaker:that left a huge scar, so I'm not going to do that thing that I did in all my
Speaker:past relationships where, you know, when I'm angry, I go take space and then
Speaker:kind of leave it up to her to kind of figure out when I'm gonna come back.
Speaker:I'm not gonna do that anymore.
Speaker:Number one, that's just not nice.
Speaker:Number two, that's not who I wanna be in a relationship.
Speaker:Number three, I love this person, and I don't wanna do that to someone I love.
Speaker:And that's why I am so invested in learning and teaching about what
Speaker:it is to love someone and to shift us the little bit of the focus
Speaker:around poor me and my trauma and my avoidant and my attachment style.
Speaker:And how can I actually learn to love more and rise above my own
Speaker:past and, and have more empathy in a relationship because empathy is
Speaker:probably the most important thing in a romantic, in any relationship ever.
Speaker:What you just said reminds me of the, of the first question, also the kind
Speaker:of how the, the personal work is so interconnected in a relationship.
Speaker:It's almost like it becomes at the beginning, I don't wanna
Speaker:do this to the person I love.
Speaker:But then it becomes also, it's, it's not just you, it's not just
Speaker:being done for the other person.
Speaker:Yeah, your like, I don't wanna be that person anymore.
Speaker:And that's powerful, that distinction, like, I'm not doing this for you, even
Speaker:though of course, because I love you, but, but just what you said there,
Speaker:I no longer want to be that person.
Speaker:And we all have to decide and we can make that choice every
Speaker:day who, what kind of partner do I, who do I wanna be today?
Speaker:How do I wanna act?
Speaker:What kind of partner do I wanna be?
Speaker:Maybe the most powerful question there is, who do I need to
Speaker:be or who am I going to be?
Speaker:You mentioned about avoidance and, and just briefly touching
Speaker:upon attachment dynamics.
Speaker:One thing I wanted to ask you here is something that I hear, I
Speaker:mean, one of the most common, the avoidant anxious attachment dynamic,
Speaker:you've seen it so many times.
Speaker:It's so common in this world, and yet so often the language I hear around it
Speaker:can, can almost induce a slight shame.
Speaker:And I don't believe that's the intent of the, the ones I'm talking about
Speaker:right now, but it's almost like when you come across it, it's like,
Speaker:well, you know, you love them, but they're anxious and you are avoidant.
Speaker:You know, you are basically fucked.
Speaker:That's it.
Speaker:Just find a secure partner.
Speaker:And you know what?
Speaker:You can try this stuff, but is your, what is your opinion?
Speaker:Um, you know, This is an interesting nuance.
Speaker:I do think that people who are highly anxious in their relationships or highly
Speaker:avoidant, destroy their relationships.
Speaker:They, they sabotage their relationships.
Speaker:People who pro, who are avoidant, you know, both of them are
Speaker:kind of lacking empathy and just thinking about themselves.
Speaker:I'm uncomfortable, so I'm gonna go do, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna
Speaker:run, or I'm uncomfortable, so I'm gonna make this person sit
Speaker:down with me and talk to me now.
Speaker:I do think though, that, you know, we're never a finished product
Speaker:and I, I, I think that if you have some anxiety, or let's just
Speaker:say you are someone who really values, it's about aligning values.
Speaker:So if you're someone who.
Speaker:Really values togetherness and closeness.
Speaker:And let's say your, your thought is, your opinion is your mentality
Speaker:is when there's conflict, I wanna sit down and talk about it and
Speaker:fix it right now, which I think is actually the best mentality to have.
Speaker:And then you're in a relationship with someone who's kind of always
Speaker:pulling away whenever there's conflict, that's gonna be a nightmare.
Speaker:And, and I would say your values, are misaligned because your value says,
Speaker:I wanna talk about it right now.
Speaker:And you can even say, if we don't like, that also makes me very anxious.
Speaker:But that's okay.
Speaker:That, that makes you anxious in my book because I think
Speaker:it should make you anxious.
Speaker:I think couples need to talk about the problem..
Speaker:So let's just say you're someone who loves your independence, but
Speaker:you wanna be in a relationship too, and you're committed, but
Speaker:once a month you like to have a weekend alone and go on a solo trip.
Speaker:If you're gonna be with someone who's really, really anxious and
Speaker:is always gonna associate you going on your weekend trip alone once a
Speaker:month, even though the rest of you is totally committed, then maybe
Speaker:that's not a good match for you.
Speaker:Maybe you need someone who has a similar level of similar degree
Speaker:of independence in their life.
Speaker:So I do think there is some nuance there, but what I really agree,
Speaker:strongly agree with is this idea of like, oh, I have anxious attachment,
Speaker:or I have avoidant attachment, or they're this, they're that.
Speaker:First of all, what does that even mean?
Speaker:Do you know even what that means?
Speaker:Because the person who is constantly pulling away, constantly shutting
Speaker:down, constantly bread crumbing you, or the person who can't give you
Speaker:a moment to yourself is completely codependent, blah, blah, blah, this
Speaker:goes beyond your attachment style.
Speaker:Like there is a pathology there that's going way beyond that, that that
Speaker:comes with trauma, that comes with extreme selfishness, which comes with
Speaker:maybe an extreme level of immaturity.
Speaker:There's a lot of context that's missing from the conversation.
Speaker:It's also, okay, these, all these things are so helpful, but not
Speaker:when they become our identity.
Speaker:I am anxious attached, I am this, and it's almost like building a cage
Speaker:around ourselves, whereas, okay, you've got a coping mechanism or a
Speaker:tendency to become anxious in certain situations in the relationship, okay,
Speaker:great, and now we can work on that.
Speaker:But if it's becomes this kind of personal story.
Speaker:And I also like what you shared about kind of the context of the example you
Speaker:gave, that's not a label for everything.
Speaker:there is more nuance to it
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Always.
Speaker:Because a person could be anxious and another person avoid him.
Speaker:But if they have the same values, which is we want to
Speaker:connect, there might be tension.
Speaker:It won't, it might, it won't be easy.
Speaker:But you could work through it.
Speaker:If you're mature and you're, and you're self-aware and you notice this is my
Speaker:tendency and you both have this, who do I wanna be in the relationship?
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:That's very different than two people, totally unconsciously
Speaker:entrenched in their own stuff, not realizing what's happening.
Speaker:Then you throw into the mix a lot of immaturity.
Speaker:And maybe you throw into the mix mixed values and maybe you throw
Speaker:into the mix just like two people who are just, or one person, just like
Speaker:not even that good of a person, you know, then it becomes very complex.
Speaker:Let's say a person is avoidant and use the example of, you said they're,
Speaker:they're very selfish, they, they're always putting away and then they're
Speaker:anxious, could be like putting that label on them, or they're just being
Speaker:avoidant, they're just being avoidant, which could also become almost an, an
Speaker:excuse or a justification for actually misaligned values as you were sharing.
Speaker:Yes, exactly.
Speaker:Or they're just avoidant.
Speaker:Maybe they don't actually like you that much or they're not
Speaker:as attracted to you, you know?
Speaker:'Cause there's a lot in the, like, if we're gonna take this into
Speaker:dating, why are they so avoidant?
Speaker:No, no, no.
Speaker:They are not actually that emotionally connected to you, and if you were
Speaker:really honest with yourself, you don't feel that emotionally connected
Speaker:to them, but your ego is so involved and you want them to choose you so
Speaker:that you're obsessing over them.
Speaker:To wrap this up I heard you talk about stress and how
Speaker:stress relates to intimacy.
Speaker:And talking now specifically about intimacy in the bedroom.
Speaker:How does stress affect intimacy in the bedroom?
Speaker:Or we can also say intimacy in general if you wish to answer it in general.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well, well let's, let's, let's, let's touch on all of it.
Speaker:So stress is rarely what happens to us.
Speaker:It's how we are reacting to what's happening.
Speaker:And most of the time people are highly stressed out and there's actually
Speaker:nothing major happening, you know, there's no death, there's no, there's no
Speaker:like family, you know, you know, 'cause there's certain things that happen in
Speaker:life that are incredibly stressful.
Speaker:But even if something big is happening, these are the things that can drive
Speaker:couples apart., because we get very consumed, we get in our heads, we are
Speaker:carrying so much tension and we are sort of divorced from our bodies and
Speaker:all, and all the sort of energy of our bodies going right into our heads,
Speaker:overthinking, ruminating, worrying.
Speaker:And we get very, with stress, we can get very, we go very inward.
Speaker:We go, usually when people are stressed, their physiology is
Speaker:shoulders rounded, down and forward, the sternum bone, sunken down,
Speaker:diaphragm constricted, so not breathing, head going slightly forward.
Speaker:So the, the brain is sort of forward of the heart.
Speaker:And it's because we are, we are self, we are in a process
Speaker:of self consuming energy.
Speaker:And what do you need for intimacy, sexual or otherwise?
Speaker:You need presence and you need to re, you need to be relaxed and to feel safe.
Speaker:And when you're dealing with stress, you're, whether it's small stress or
Speaker:big stress, you're in some, somewhere on the spectrum of fight or flight,
Speaker:and you're so in your own world versus connecting with the other.
Speaker:So stress really is the thing that can drive people apart and you
Speaker:know, and then you're not present.
Speaker:And then I, I think that this is a pretty much known thing is
Speaker:that if a man is stressed enough, can't even get an erection.
Speaker:So there's that,
Speaker:Also, you mentioned the word relaxation and I be think I, I think that this is
Speaker:not enough talked about the importance of how relaxation ties into all of this.
Speaker:Because when we do the healing work, stressed out.
Speaker:Intimacy flows naturally when we're relaxed
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So we have to feel safe.
Speaker:And we have to let go.
Speaker:So what I'm hearing here is for a couple who is who, who are so stressed out,
Speaker:it's almost like that stress doesn't leave room for intimacy and connection.
Speaker:No, it doesn't.
Speaker:It becomes the, it becomes the, the wedge that pulls them apart.
Speaker:And so part of, if they were to be getting work on this is to realize how
Speaker:they've been reacting to stressors, how that has been, this is, this is
Speaker:why once again, full circle, you can be with the right person for you.
Speaker:You could be with the quote unquote the one, but they can't,
Speaker:you're still gonna experience that stress that has, that's you.
Speaker:That's you and your relationship with yourself and your relationship
Speaker:with going on in the world.
Speaker:And so I've seen relationships that that should, in my opinion, work,
Speaker:not work because of, not knowing how to kind of cope with stress.
Speaker:So learning to cope with stress leads to deeper connection and
Speaker:intimacy in a relationship?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:What I would add to that is people think that their finances or their sex
Speaker:life or their relationship will all get better once they're less stressed.
Speaker:When really it's how we learn how to cope with that stress, how
Speaker:to wrestle with the stressors of our lives that will ultimately
Speaker:improve the relationship.
Speaker:And it will really how we, how we are able to deal with stress, the
Speaker:stressors in life determines the quality of our personal lives.
Speaker:And I've been in, in, in states emotional states where my, my capacity
Speaker:to deal with small stressors was very, very low, and that's a terrible, it
Speaker:sucks to be in that position, and it means you have to take a time out.
Speaker:It means you have to slow down, it means you have to connect with nature.
Speaker:It means you have to start exercising, it means you have to do certain things.
Speaker:It means you meditate, whatever it is, talk to someone to tone your
Speaker:nervous system, to be able to deal with the uncertainty that is woven into
Speaker:the very fabric of our daily lives.
Speaker:One last question I have here for you is, where can people access your work,
Speaker:and are there any upcoming offerings that you would like to mention?
Speaker:Well, thank you so much.
Speaker:So yes, I believe this episode is coming out right when my book is out,
Speaker:so that's the most important thing.
Speaker:I wrote a book called it Begins With You, the Nine Hard Truths About
Speaker:Love That Will Change Your Life.
Speaker:And I basically put in the last.
Speaker:20 years of my working with people into this book and personal story
Speaker:and case studies, and you can order it at jillianturecki.com/book.
Speaker:Can order it from basically anywhere.
Speaker:So this is the main thing.
Speaker:Then of course there is my podcast, Jillian on Love, and
Speaker:where you can listen or to it anywhere or watch it on YouTube.
Speaker:And then there is, um.
Speaker:Just my social media, Jillian Turecki.
Speaker:And I have, um, a very special membership that I do for women.
Speaker:I do a lot of women's work, so it's called the Conscious Woman.
Speaker:And so that you can just find, you just need to know my name,
Speaker:and, uh, you can find me anywhere.
Speaker:We're going to link all of this in the show notes and wherever
Speaker:the the episode launches.
Speaker:Thank you, Jillian.
Speaker:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker:Thank you for joining me on this episode of Masculine and Feminine Dynamics.
Speaker:It is an honor to have your presence here exploring these
Speaker:profound topics with us.
Speaker:My deepest hope is that this conversation with Jillian brought
Speaker:you clarity, inspiration, and practical tools to take into
Speaker:your own life and relationship.
Speaker:You can find links to Jillian's work in the show notes or episode description.
Speaker:She has just published a book called, it Begins With You, the Nine Hard Truths
Speaker:About Love That Will Change Your Life.
Speaker:The link is in the show notes or episode description.
Speaker:If you'd like more transformative content, I invite you to subscribe to my
Speaker:newsletter at lorinkrenn.com/newsletter, which is entirely for free, or
Speaker:to download one of my free eBooks at Lorin lorinkrenn.com/books for
Speaker:more insights into love, intimacy, and self mastery and awakening.
Speaker:Your support means the world to me.
Speaker:If you found value in this episode, please consider taking a moment to rate
Speaker:the show five stars and leave a review.
Speaker:It helps us reach more people who are seeking guidance on their journey.
Speaker:And if this episode resonated with you, share it with someone
Speaker:who needs to hear its message.
Speaker:That would mean the world to me.
Speaker:Thank you for being here.
Speaker:I'm truly honored to be part of your journey.
