How Men Can Learn to Hold Space – With Leo Oppenheim
Lots of men struggle to express their emotions, which can lead to them feeling isolated and frustrated.
The solution starts with open and honest conversations with friends and loved ones. Men need to practice setting boundaries and expressing their emotions without fear of judgment – and to hold safe spaces for others to express themselves.
In this episode, Lorin sits down with yoga, breathwork and sound healer Leo Oppenheim, who shares his journey towards awakened masculinity, and how men need to realise their role as one of listener, rather than problem-solver.
Follow @leo_oppenheim on Instagram
Leo's upcoming trainings: https://linktr.ee/leooppenheim
Mentioned in this episode:
The Awakened Feminine Program – Starts 10th November 2024
An immersive journey into the depths of the feminine heart
Transcript
I don't believe I'm fixing or healing anyone.
Leo:I don't believe that anyone requires fixing or healing.
Leo:I really, really see it as.
Leo:It's the illusions and it's the sharp judgments that we carry of ourselves and others that create this tension in ourselves.
Leo:I feel like men in our society are not so readily given the tools to work into their emotional landscape and to feel that it's okay for them to be grieving, to be sad.
Leo:And what I feel, even in the conscious parts of our society, if a man breaks down in front of women in this society, consciously, they might celebrate it, but unconsciously there's this, oh, this person isn't necessarily a strong support for me now, you know, that unconscious can create that.
Lorin:Welcome to the Masculine and Feminine Dynamics podcast.
Lorin:My name is Lorin Krenn, and I'm a coach author and hypnotherapist.
Lorin:I help you to create the relationship you want.
Lorin:Let's dive in.
Lorin:Leo, you are a dear brother of mine.
Lorin:I've seen you teach, even though you are incredibly knowledgeable and you have literally every certification that exists about breath work, about yoga, about movement, about sound therapy, about somatic healing.
Lorin:When I know saw you facilitate.
Lorin:I could see, and I can always see that you embody the knowledge, you embody what you teach.
Lorin:And today we're going to talk about what it means to be a conscious man.
Lorin:What are the collective challenges that men experience?
Lorin:What does it mean to hold space for the feminine?
Lorin:We wanna talk about common myths in the spiritual journey, the power of breath, and much more.
Lorin:Welcome to the podcast, brother.
Leo:Mm.
Leo:Thank you so much, Lorin.
Lorin:And what I wanna ask you here is you've got an incredible devotion and discipline towards the path.
Lorin:And usually someone who has this level of devotion and this level of discipline has experienced some form of suffering in their lives.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:Was there something in your journey that has had such a profound impact on you that changed everything?
Leo:Yeah.
Leo:I mean, I've had, I've had quite a few challenges I feel, um, growing up.
Leo:Uh, firstly, I mean, when I was born, my middle brother, you know, from a place of resource guarding, he really actually wanted to kill me from birth.
Lorin:Wow.
Leo:So my mum, bless her, she had to put me in a little lobster cup, park cage, and I don't really feel it was his fault.
Leo:You know, he was a year and a quarter old.
Leo:He wasn't particularly conscious in that way, and he was a beautiful baby.
Leo:And then I appeared and he definitely immediately saw me as a threat to his resources.
Leo:And really that relationship with him continued all the way until I was 18 in that way.
Leo:It shifted and changed in different forms.
Leo:It was partly sometimes physical, quite a lot of it was psychological.
Leo:Um, as the older boy, within an older peer group, he would often look at my new friendship circles and take my new friendship circles away from me.
Leo:So that was, um, I think in a psychological level, a beautiful gift actually.
Leo:Um, it was quite hard.
Leo:It was quite dark at points.
Leo:I felt very lonely at points, but I feel that it gave me deep resilience.
Leo:I feel that there was points in my life where I had to drop into myself.
Leo:And also, you know, when I was 18, my brothers and my father, you know, I said to them, I'm not gonna go to university.
Leo:I'm going to be a professional rollerblader.
Leo:And there, there was always this massive doubt with that.
Leo:There's no way you can do that.
Leo:It's not possible.
Leo:There's not a living to be made from that.
Leo:And they weren't being hard on me, you know, from their perspective.
Leo:In reality, they just saw that there was not a possible career path there.
Leo:But I feel that that, and actually battling and having the resilience of that growing up and always having to prove that I could do things and move through things, and also shedding people that weren't truly, truly close to me, you know?
Leo:And when you are younger, you move, you shift and you change, but then you get to see who are the people that will actually stay by you.
Leo:And then that point when I was 18, you know, my deep intuition told me this was my path.
Leo:And even with all of the doubt, even with anything that anyone ever said, I truly believed that and I trusted my intuition.
Leo:And I feel that relationship with my brother, relationship with my father.
Leo:When my mum left after we, when I was 13, you know, my fa my mother left and I was in a very, um, ated household.
Leo:Very angry.
Leo:A lot of shouting.
Leo:A lot of fighting.
Leo:Um, I feel, and that was when I was 13, and it drew me towards having female friends.
Leo:And I feel that that gave me a deeper awareness of that side.
Leo:Um, I've always actually found it.
Leo:Easier to resonate and connect with women on a friendship level than I have with men.
Leo:So like, I'm very grateful for, you know, the conscious men that are in my life now.
Lorin:So many of us have this wound almost because we had such challenging experiences with the role models who perhaps even betrayed us to a certain degree.
Leo:Yeah.
Lorin:But that was the experience of us back then.
Lorin:We wanted to be, we wanted to be led, we wanted to be guided.
Lorin:We wanted to be initiated.
Leo:Yes.
Lorin:And yet we experienced so much pain, perhaps even jealousy or anger or even, or even hatred.
Lorin:And then it becomes difficult to connect with other men.
Lorin:I wanted to ask you this question actually towards the end, but we're already going into it.
Leo:Let's go.
Leo:I'm ready.
Lorin:Competition, specifically between men.
Lorin:Yes.
Lorin:Is that something you experienced in the past?
Leo:Yes.
Lorin:Yes.
Lorin:And how did you overcome this?
Leo:I mean, this was definitely with my brother, you know, all the way through.
Leo:And what was really interesting is I'm not someone that's particularly had role models growing up because he was still my role model, even though there was an abusive relationship happening.
Leo:And again, you know, we've moved through that now.
Leo:We have a really good relationship.
Lorin:Wow.
Leo:But actually it was, it was a struggle.
Leo:But really I always looked up to him till I was about 14, 15, even though there was a lot of difficulty there.
Leo:And he was quite popular within school.
Leo:He was, you know, he was one of the sort of outcasts in a way, but he was also, you know, a lot of people looked highly upon him.
Leo:And then when I got to about 16, 17, and I'd been skating from 13 and I was quite a slight kid, I wasn't particularly physically uh, gifted.
Leo:And then when I got into the rollerblading when I was 13, that started to build my strength.
Leo:And I remember at 16 sort of starting to feel more empowered and more confident within myself.
Leo:And about 17, there was a point where we were on the beach and we were with all of our friends and he, um, started fighting me.
Leo:And I was in a place now where I think all of that, that, um, energy had built up.
Lorin:Yes.
Leo:Over so many years.
Leo:And I remember I ended up holding his head towards the sand and saying, if you don't stop, I'll make you eat the sand.
Leo:And then I made him eat the sand, which was like, it was a lot like I look back now and my way in which, like, I don't compete in the same way that I did, but I feel like that growing up gave me a lot of ignition to prove myself.
Leo:Then when I was 18, I had a massive fight with him that I can't remember.
Leo:It was really, really a lot.
Leo:And he apologized to me afterwards, um, and said, look, let's never make this happen again.
Leo:He bought me some chocolate and some beer and that was it.
Leo:And from that point we, we kind of cleared that.
Leo:Now that gave me a lot of ignition to want to prove myself and that really sort of pushed me a lot.
Leo:I feel like from a young age I was in that place of tapas of discipline, but it coming from that place of wounding.
Leo:And with the skating, you know, as an example, my dream was always to get sponsored by this amazing French company called Seba.
Leo:They sponsored me.
Leo:They got me to come over to Paris and meet the whole team.
Leo:It was like a dream come true.
Leo:And I came away from that and the immediate thoughts and feelings from that were, I need to make sure they know.
Leo:That I belong on this team, that I'm enough to be on this team, even though they'd already done that.
Leo:And I skated really hard four or five hours every day.
Leo:Every day, because I wanted to prove to them that I was enough.
Leo:And actually it ended up making me really dislike what I was doing.
Leo:And it took me away from the skating.
Leo:And it was the same with squash, really.
Leo:I was competing in the squash, but it was a bit less wounded because it was a team sport.
Leo:So it was always, always about winning for the team and being with the team.
Leo:But again, when the yoga came in, that started to peel away these layers and ideas of, you know, I have to validate myself and prove myself by winning.
Leo:And actually, the practice went more inwards.
Leo:And I feel that was when I started to work into that.
Leo:But this is a constant process for me.
Leo:It's something that I've definitely been working on recently.
Leo:I feel like I've had quite a few changes in my life where I feel like I am this person.
Leo:I know who I am, this is what I do, and as soon as I'm solidified in that idea of what I am, the universe does a beautiful job of just like clearing it for me.
Lorin:Mm.
Leo:So I'm in one of those stages right now where I'm reestablishing the idea of who I am knowing as well that I'm nothing at the same time.
Lorin:Mm.
Lorin:So I love that.
Lorin:I love that distinction.
Lorin:And it does work to a certain degree that need to prove ourselves.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:It is fuel, but as you just mentioned, it comes from this place of wounding.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:So it can get you to places.
Lorin:You never arrive, right?
Lorin:So it's, it's a powerful energy.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:And I believe that a lot of men are operating in this energy of anger.
Lorin:Well, I'm not labeling your experience.
Leo:No, no.
Lorin:I'm talking about my experience, that anger and that need of, I'm gonna prove myself to the world.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:And it, it does this, this anger serves a purpose because it gets us into action.
Lorin:It gets us to change our circumstances.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:But it's when we stay there.
Leo:Yeah.
Lorin:That's, that's the pain.
Lorin:And so, so when the yoga came in in your life, you are able to almost like transmute this energy from outwardly focused.
Leo:Yes.
Lorin:It became now it became the inner discipline and the inner devotion.
Leo:Yeah.
Leo:Alchemy becoming passion.
Leo:And what's really beautiful with it now is I feel that.
Leo:Um, a lot of the energy that was there, and a lot of the ignition has now been put into really sharing the practices and being in space with people and not seeing myself as above anyone in those spaces to see it as we are a collective.
Lorin:Yes.
Leo:When I'm facilitating a practice, how can I be creating a safe space?
Leo:That's my job.
Leo:I create a safe space as much as possible, that people come in and they feel at home, they feel welcomed, and then they feel safe enough to drop into themselves.
Leo:Then when guiding the practice, I, I'm always considering how can I get the people in that space to feel safe enough and to really focus and have clear instruction so that they can drop into those practices so that they create the shifts within themselves?
Leo:I don't believe I'm fixing or healing anyone.
Leo:I don't believe that anyone requires fixing or healing.
Leo:I really, really see it as.
Leo:It's the illusions and it's the sharp judgments that we carry of ourselves and others that create this tension in ourselves that create, uh, this dis-ease.
Leo:And when you drop into talking and working through things like you do so beautifully, and I have so many people telling me how much they love your work and love the message that you're putting across, so this talking, the work that happens there where we reestablish our relationship with past stories, where we start to relinquish the judgments.
Leo:But then also somatically when I'm shaking, when I'm breathing, when I'm opening my body through movement, when I'm sounding out, when I'm somatically articulating, when I'm almost these tantric practices of connecting to the external through the physical, the energetic, the intellectually emotional.
Leo:How can I then reestablish these ideas of my past and come to a place where I am absolutely present and the past is not informing how I see the world.
Lorin:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:What would you say, Leo, are one of the biggest challenges for men in today's world?
Leo:Communication.
Leo:Communication is a big thing that I observe.
Leo:I observe it in myself.
Leo:I observe I've had to, well, I haven't had had to.
Leo:I have made a choice and I'm still making a choice to consciously work on the conversations I ,have to not be afraid of having difficult conversations, to not be afraid of establishing firm boundaries for myself and not abandoning myself in favor of the other person feeling good.
Leo:But then in our society, I don't believe men are really taught to articulate their emotions.
Leo:We are taught as men in our stereotypical society, and this is changing.
Leo:People are becoming more conscious.
Leo:Stereotypically in our society, though, we are taught to, Support our friends by distracting them.
Leo:Oh, don't worry about it, mate.
Leo:It's fine.
Leo:Look, let's go to the pub, or let's watch the football.
Leo:Let's distract ourselves with this.
Leo:Let's play computer games.
Leo:Let's do something physical to come away from the emotions that we are feeling.
Leo:And what I find really interesting is, you know, for instance, football in the uk, you see all of these men, they're coming together.
Leo:And as much as, in a way, it's unconscious through the game, they are feeling the emotions that they have in their own personal life through watching the game.
Leo:And that's how they're working through it.
Leo:And I also think it's fascinating that amphitheater and the sound and vibrations that are being created, but this is again, another distraction.
Leo:We'll all be together, we'll drink together.
Leo:We have community here, and then we'll articulate our emotions through the game.
Leo:But it's like, what you really trying to say to your fellow man, what do you really want to articulate?
Leo:Because this is for me, why male suicide rates are so high.
Leo:You put these emotions down, you stop articulating your feelings, and then you feel them.
Leo:And when they come up, you distract yourself from them or you move through them with the gym or hard exercise.
Leo:And then you're pushing it down.
Leo:You're pushing it down.
Leo:One day that comes up and it explodes.
Leo:And then there's no support network asking you if you are really okay, asking to really articulate the feelings that's not there because your friends, the stereotypical society, the friends will actually mock each other if they're feeling a bit emotional.
Lorin:Mm.
Leo:You know, you see that all of the time.
Leo:And so then there's not really that support there.
Leo:And then there's that lack of understanding within each individual man.
Leo:Like, what is this that's coming up for me now?
Leo:How do I process this?
Leo:How do I move through this?
Leo:And I feel like men in our society are not so readily given the tools to work into their emotional landscape and to feel that it's okay for them to be grieving, to be sad, um, we're almost, I feel allowed and supported in being angry in a way.
Leo:In a way our society's like, oh, okay, he's angry.
Leo:He's in the gym.
Leo:He's blowing off steam, perish.
Leo:The thought of a man actually being emotional and sad and what I feel, even in the conscious parts of our society, if a man breaks down in front of women in this society, consciously, they might celebrate it, but unconsciously there's this, oh, this person isn't necessarily a strong support for me now, you know, that unconscious can create that.
Lorin:There's a saying that says the body always speaks the highest truth.
Leo:Yeah.
Lorin:And I, I believe big part of the work you do,
Leo:it's huge.
Leo:It's huge.
Lorin:It's helping people tap into that language of the body.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:And due to my conditioning, I thought it was weak when I say to my wife, for instance, I'm feeling insecure right now.
Leo:Mm.
Lorin:I am feeling challenged right now, and I'm not talking about projecting it outwardly.
Lorin:Yeah.
Lorin:And being whining and complaining.
Leo:Yeah.
Lorin:But actually it was, it's much more unconscious to try to put on a mask.
Leo:Yes.
Lorin:Because the feminine or truly anyone who stepped in.
Lorin:They can feel it.
Leo:Absolutely.
Leo:And we shut down.
Leo:This is the natural response.
Leo:I shut it down.
Leo:I create a barrier.
Leo:And you know, I even noticed this, uh, I had a, a thing roundabout when I was 20.
Leo:I got really into weightlifting and bodybuilding.
Leo:I was working with a beautiful guy called Chris at a company called Monkey Nutrition.
Leo:But he was really supporting me at the time and I was doing a lot of bodybuilding and I always had this real insecurity about my chest.
Leo:I was always like, oh, my chest muscles, they're not big enough.
Leo:Or like, and there was this obsession with working there.
Leo:And then it was only when I really started doing a lot more of this work that I realized I was armoring my heart.
Leo:I was armoring my heart.
Leo:I was physically creating a barrier from myself to the world because actually I was wounded.
Leo:Like I am still carrying a lot of wounds I am still working on and processing through a lot of wounds.
Leo:And you know, I also feel that our, um, spiritual communities or conscious communities in a way, there is this, it's almost supported to put people on a plin for a platform and be like, they've got it all wor worked out.
Leo:They have everything going on.
Leo:And I know this with myself, like I'm looking recently and I'm looking at my Instagram and I'm like, wow.
Leo:So many people, they meet me and they go, oh, you know, I thought you'd be less jovial, less comical.
Leo:I thought you'd be more serious.
Leo:You know, and actually when I've been moving through quite a lot of troubling things recently, no one's really been reaching out and saying, are you okay?
Lorin:Wow.
Leo:How are you?
Leo:And I've noticed I've gone, well, I feel quite lonely right now.
Leo:No one's asking me how I am, and I'm like, you have created this.
Leo:Without meaning to, you've created this.
Leo:You know, people see, they speak to you, they meet you.
Leo:You're holding space.
Leo:They go, wow, you've got everything worked out.
Leo:You've got it all solved.
Leo:And it's like, no, we have these tools.
Leo:We all are developing these different tools of mindfulness, of articulation, of dropping into our emotional landscape, but they're tools.
Leo:It doesn't mean we're not hitting all of these different emotional fluctuations.
Leo:But then it's like, how do I allow myself to be vulnerable enough to tell people, do you know what?
Leo:I'm not okay.
Leo:I'm actually moving through things.
Leo:And allow myself to receive.
Leo:And going to India, that was one of my.
Leo:Um, you know, it was one of the big intentions I set allowing myself to receive.
Leo:And it's so funny because since then, that's been coming up a lot.
Leo:And actually with all of the changes I've been feeling a little bit less stable, I've been feeling a little bit more vulnerable.
Leo:I've been feeling this, who am I?
Leo:And as a result, I have been openly and authentically communicating my vulnerabilities to people.
Leo:And you know what?
Leo:I feel so much more supported.
Lorin:Wow.
Leo:Because people go, wow, I'm, I'm really surprised, you know?
Leo:And a lot of the time they go, oh, I'm really surprised you're not.
Leo:Okay.
Leo:And then funnily enough, I now have a support network that I didn't allow myself before.
Leo:'cause I was so busy facilitating all the time, always holding space.
Leo:And it's like, I actually believe we have two heart chakras.
Leo:I believe the, the chakra system.
Leo:You know, I thought it was beautiful psychologically, I didn't believe it energetically until I did my breath training.
Leo:And we were fasting a lot.
Leo:And then I started to feel all of the subtle energy body because I feel the subtle energy body is not able to be felt when we are digesting food in the same way.
Leo:And then for me, I believe that we actually have two heart chakras.
Leo:I believe we have the collective consciousness as heart chakra, that when I'm facilitating in a practice, I drop into that where we are all one.
Leo:But then also I have that personal heart chakra.
Leo:And that one has been being neglected.
Leo:That one has been like, okay.
Leo:And last year I looked at one point and I was like, wow.
Leo:You know, your career, everything that's going on in your life, everything that's going on all around you is so beautiful, so abundant, and yet your own personal life is a car crash.
Lorin:Wow.
Leo:So I am really mindful of that now.
Leo:I'm like, okay, how can I be as human as possible in this work?
Leo:How can I, as much as I'm holding space and facilitating, let people know when I'm moving through things, I'm vulnerable as well.
Leo:And there is so much power in vulnerability.
Leo:There is so much power in articulating vulnerability.
Leo:And people who have this idea of, you see that and it, it then they connect with you on a deeper level.
Lorin:The example I want to give here is I had moments in my life where I was facilitating all day and all these incredible transformations.
Lorin:And then I noticed myself being anxious and being stressed, and then being at the dinner table with my wife and then projecting that stress onto her.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:And in that moment, she made me aware of it.
Lorin:The beautiful oracle, the divine neuro that she always is.
Leo:Yes, she is.
Lorin:She made, thank you brother.
Lorin:She makes me aware of it.
Lorin:And I had this kind of epiphany, is it not dysfunctional, even to a degree when I am facilitating and it's so powerful and powerful and powerful, but then in my own personal life, I'm faltering.
Lorin:And I, I'm not saying that I was drastically falling apart, but it made me realize I don't want to be the kind of guy that is perceived as all facilitating really, really powerful, but then in their personal life is not embodying the work that is being taught.
Lorin:And, and it's, it's so easy to fall into that trap.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:And it's, for me, the journey is, and that's an ongoing process because that's when stuff gets hard.
Lorin:Hard at a good level, but it gets hard.
Leo:Yeah.
Lorin:Is when you say, okay, I'm actually more than just a facilitator.
Lorin:It's not just about 2, 3, 5, 6 hours yet.
Lorin:It's amazing and it's the most profound work.
Lorin:But who am I afterwards?
Lorin:Who am I, with one's beloved?
Lorin:Who am I with my friends with those clothes around me?
Leo:Mm.
Lorin:Can I bring the same level of depth, the same level of spirit?
Lorin:And, and that's an ongoing journey of, of starting to realize.
Lorin:Everything is part of the sacred.
Lorin:And if there is any discrepancy between the two, then that's the invitation for the work.
Leo:And this is my, has been my invitation for sure.
Leo:I definitely feel it's the energy you put into things and you can become so all in.
Leo:And for me, I've always, I know what my deep purpose is.
Leo:My deep purpose is BTI is sever, it's devotion, it's service, always.
Leo:I feel that and I know that.
Leo:And I know when I'm in those spaces and the collective consciousness, we're all moving and breathing together.
Leo:I know I'm in my purpose.
Leo:I'm in my truth.
Leo:But then my personal self has been neglected.
Leo:And that is an imbalance.
Leo:And so this has been, this is still a process, still working on it.
Leo:And then, wow, you peel back the layers and then you're like, who am I?
Leo:And the reality is we are.
Leo:We are nothing and no one, and we're everything and everyone.
Leo:But if I'm outwardly putting all that devotion and service into everyone else, and then I'm neglecting my own inner landscape and if I'm practicing that a him, so that non-violence towards everyone else and the deep compassion, but then I'm not giving the energy back towards myself or I'm not allowing myself to receive, then that doesn't last, that cannot last, you know?
Lorin:Talking about the feminine here as well, um, you are an extremely powerful space holder.
Lorin:And many men, specifically with the feminine, there is a huge challenge when it comes to holding space.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:What would you say to a man who struggles with holding space for the feminine?
Leo:So I think in a way I, I feel in a way that I had quite a deep privilege with growing up when my mum left, um, when my mum left, the unconscious part of myself started to direct, um, friendship towards the feminine.
Leo:And I feel I've always had, um, connection and lots of close friends that were women, and I found it actually easier.
Leo:I look now and I see that that initial seed that was planted there was coming from a place that 'cause the masculine in my life was so overwhelming, so combative, come combative, and my mum, before she left, she was the glue that held everything together.
Leo:You know, she was, she was there, she'd look after us all the time.
Leo:She actually really spoiled us.
Leo:She'd like clean the house all the time.
Leo:She'd bring us breakfast, everything and do everything for us.
Leo:And then when she left, there was a big stark contrast.
Leo:And that gave me the opportunity to connect with the feminine.
Leo:But I really feel, actually initially what I was always doing when I was connecting with the feminine was I was space holding there.
Leo:I was always asking them how they are, how is their relationship?
Leo:You know, how is everything with them?
Leo:And I've had that going through my life.
Leo:And actually I had cyclical patterns of relationships where I would always hold space for that person.
Leo:Are you okay?
Leo:Make sure they were okay.
Leo:Abandon myself.
Leo:And then about a year, a year and a quarter in, be like, this person isn't making me happy.
Leo:I realize now in retrospect that I was making myself unhappy by abandoning myself.
Lorin:Wow.
Leo:By going, oh, I will put you first and I will put you on a pedestal and everything that is your want and need, I'm here for that.
Leo:And then you forget about yourself.
Leo:And it's funny how this echoes in everything else that I'm moving through now.
Leo:But my advice whether it is with the masculine or the feminine, is coming away from your ideas of what you think you know and being a mirror as much as possible.
Leo:So if I am sat in front of someone and they are moving through something as best as possible, I will come away from the intellect and the idea of I know, and I will just ask questions.
Leo:I will watch that person, I will see their reactions, and if something is there, I'll ask a question about that.
Leo:If I can see some sort of emotion coming up when a particular sentence is said, I'll bring them back to that and I'll just guide and I'll continue to question, continue to question.
Leo:It's my firm belief, and I know this from growing up and having friends that I was really close to that were women that were in abusive relationships, and I'd be like, look, you shouldn't be in this right now.
Leo:This is doing you no good.
Leo:It's doing you harm.
Leo:And then they would end up staying in that relationship that would then affect our friendship.
Leo:And there was always that dissonance.
Leo:And if you start to tell people what they should do, you are coming at it from a place where you are imposing your framework and your understanding of life onto their experience.
Lorin:it's not that men are, um, are doing this consciously.
Leo:No.
Lorin:They, they, they think they're of service if they solve your problem.
Lorin:But what's really underneath driving it is that need for validation.
Leo:Whereas if I can be a mirror as much as possible, if I can be a mirror, if you can be a mirror, that is the most powerful thing.
Leo:You sit, you listen, and then you ask questions and you listen.
Leo:And that person will always, if they feel safe and feel that mirror is there, they will always come up with the answer themselves.
Leo:And then they will take that answer and run with it.
Leo:'cause it's come from within.
Leo:It's not come from external projection.
Leo:And I'm always noticing and catching myself when I come out of that, because I do come out of that sometimes.
Leo:When I get emotive and I go, oh, this person's really moving through something.
Leo:I want to save them.
Lorin:Yeah.
Leo:I want to.
Leo:I want support 'em.
Leo:And this is the other thing with the masculine and the thing that I had for a lot of years in relationship.
Leo:I wanna save this person.
Lorin:Yeah.
Leo:It's like no one, no one is ever gonna fix you, ever gonna save you.
Leo:It's my belief that no one requires fixing.
Leo:But when we look to the external, oh, this will help, this will help.
Leo:Everything is within.
Leo:And then ideally you have support around you where people can just guide you further within yourself and just be mirrors.
Lorin:And the other thing you mentioned about, uh, what we can call one label of this would be the pleaser archetype, right?
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:With what we're pleasing and sacrificing our needs.
Lorin:Um, for someone else.
Leo:Yes.
Lorin:And it's moving from that into the place of setting boundaries.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:Embodying, I call it fierce love.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:Because when we're in the police archetype, we only embody the softness of love.
Leo:Yes.
Lorin:But not the fierce aspect of spirit, that kind of fierce, powerful, dark masculine, or dark feminine energy.
Lorin:Um, what would you say to a man who's struggling right now with pleasing tendencies in his relationship or anywhere really?
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:How can he move into that place of fierce love where he doesn't lose himself in anger and hatreds, but in this powerful, grounded place?
Leo:So, I would say find tools and find ways in which you can start to speak your truth, to start to vocalize, to open up this area.
Leo:In yoga, they call it shudi the throat chakra.
Leo:And you can feel it.
Leo:You know, and, and actually what I notice myself, I'm not someone who outwardly feels a lot of emotions.
Leo:My emotional landscape.
Leo:I feel it physically.
Lorin:Yeah.
Leo:Which I think I, I would say is probably resonant for a lot of men.
Lorin:Yes.
Leo:That, that you feel it in your body.
Lorin:Same.
Leo:I did a beautiful sound training and that it was a whole week of the two weeks was spent on our voice.
Leo:But also, and I wouldn't say this is necessarily a tool for other people, but I was in a cyclical pattern of relationships and monogamous relationships where I was abandoning myself.
Leo:And then I actually went through a period of non-monogamy, but doing my best to really, really clearly communicate.
Leo:Now I feel in my process it was necessary and not even necessary.
Leo:It was a choice I made and I'm really glad I made that choice.
Leo:What I then found, it got to the point where I was no longer non-monogamous, but I thought that I was, and I created that identity and I had a, you know, some pitfalls and some epiphanies with that.
Leo:But being in uncomfortable situations where we want to please someone else and rather than trying to please someone, what is your truth?
Leo:A nonviolent communication with that, I don't have to say my truth as a sharp sword, okay?
Leo:There's a big difference to me between judgment and the sharp sword of judgment and compassionate discernment of going, okay, this is my truth.
Leo:This is how I feel in alignment.
Leo:How do I communicate this in a nonviolent way?
Leo:How do I communicate this in a way where it's not causing the of a person suffering, but at the same time, I am expressing clearly what is my truth?
Leo:Because the reality is in sound and vibration, everyone thinks the highest vibration is love.
Leo:But the highest vibration is authenticity.
Lorin:Yes.
Leo:And so it's like, okay, cool.
Leo:Like if you're expressing love, but it's not authentic.
Leo:Is that true love?
Lorin:I love that.
Lorin:And it's, um, I, I always like to say that the awakened feminine or the sacred feminine is the teacher of love.
Lorin:Um, it's almost like the love that we perceive in a kind of specifically spiritual community is often this kind of abstract only compassionate love in that sense.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:Even though that is not, I'm not using the, the true meaning of compassion here.
Leo:No, no.
Lorin:And what you describe it's authenticity.
Lorin:I love that because you can express love, but if it's not authentic, it's not the energy of love.
Leo:No.
Lorin:So someone who's struggling with pleasing tendencies, what is their truth?
Lorin:What is their truthful expression?
Lorin:And as they express their truth, they're being their most authentic, which means the highest love flows through.
Leo:Yes, exactly.
Leo:And you know, for instance, I know in relationships in the past, I started by not expressing my truth in small ways, and it became bigger and bigger and bigger.
Leo:And that person.
Leo:It's absolutely nothing to do with that person, not being a beautiful woman.
Leo:But I am creating an environment where they are completely used to doing all of the things that they want to do and me supporting them.
Lorin:Yes.
Leo:And in their mind I'm happy.
Leo:Yes.
Leo:Because I'm not communicating any dis-ease.
Leo:And actually I don't even feel, in the past I was necessarily conscious of that dis-ease.
Leo:But if I'd listened to my body, my body would've been telling me.
Lorin:Mm-Hmm.
Leo:And then what happens then?
Leo:Well then, you know, other people validate you, you know, other women like compliment you and you take those validations and you, you get something from that.
Leo:And then there becomes a dissonance where if I'm not being authentic in my relationship and I continue to abandon that, I then create an illusion of who I am to that person.
Leo:That person that is with me is not seeing who I truly am.
Leo:And as a result of that, of me abandoning myself, I'm then abandoning the relationship.
Leo:What I would much rather do is have deeply uncomfortable conversations or potentially have conscious uncoupling with somebody.
Lorin:Yes.
Leo:And it being true, not staying in a situation, in an environment where I am comfortably uncomfortable.
Leo:Because the reality is women have deep intuition and they feel that, and I know from past experiences when I've been in relationships and then I've abandoned myself, and then I felt like, oh, I shouldn't really be here anymore, but I've stayed in it.
Leo:And also I've caused illusion to myself before where I've gone, oh, I'm practicing my yoga.
Leo:I'm practicing my non-violence, my forgiveness, my compassion, and then completely going, okay, well that's great.
Leo:All your non-violence com, compassion towards that person.
Leo:Where's your non-violence towards yourself didn't exist.
Leo:And then as a result of that, what ends up happening?
Leo:Well, actually further down the line, that person either way ends up more wounded because they are in an illusion and that relationship is not authentic.
Lorin:I like to say that we need to align everything in our life to the highest truth, and some people can do that in most areas.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:Or when it comes to relationships, this is where it gets to the really uncomfortable conversations and this kind of level of fierceness that's required.
Lorin:Talking about the, the journey of healing and awakening, I wanted to ask you the biggest myths that you have seen.
Lorin:You did mention one of them already because you sensed it already.
Lorin:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:As this conversation is so naturally flowing.
Leo:Of course, always.
Lorin:Which we knew anyway would happen, brother.
Lorin:But you said, and I believe this is the biggest one actually.
Lorin:This is the biggest in all.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:No one needs fixing.
Lorin:No one needs healing.
Leo:Mm-hmm.
Lorin:Right?
Leo:That's the biggest that for me, for me, I feel that is the biggest delusion, that is a big undercurrent of this beautiful conscious community we have.
Leo:And again, I don't feel that it is a purposeful thing, but I feel that even the, the terminology of healer or, you know, as an example, like reiki master and all of these things, you know, reiki master, beautiful reiki at achievements, all of these things, they're beautiful, powerful tools.
Leo:But when there's anything that puts somebody on a pedestal that is above.
Leo:And this is why I love, I love and adore one of my, um, my beautiful teachers from New York Dharma Mitra.
Leo:And he's 85 now I think, and he's been facilitating for 55 years.
Leo:And he will immediately smash a plinth that anybody puts himself, puts him on.
Leo:And his whole, you know, the mantra that he uses all the time that he uses in breath is humsa so hum, so hum.
Leo:Humsa, I am you, you are me.
Leo:I am that, that I am.
Leo:And all of these beautiful space holders that are doing this amazing work, when they get the opportunity to come away from this idea that they're the healer, they're the ones fixing, you are doing beautiful things, they are doing magical things, but actually you will be so much more in alignment.
Leo:When you come away from this idea that you are better or worse than someone, that you are more or less conscious that you are above or below good or bad.
Leo:We are all doing our work.
Leo:We're all doing the best we can within ourselves.
Leo:When I come to a space of facilitation, how can I let go of that, that I, and allow.
Leo:The collective consciousness?
Leo:But now in turn, 'cause I feel like I, for years have done that.
Leo:I've dissolved myself within the facilitation and I've stepped out of the way and been a conduit of the practice.
Leo:But in turn, how can I be a conduit of the practice, but then express my vulnerabilities as well at the same time?
Leo:So that's my work.
Leo:Now my work is, I, I step away from my identity, but in turn, can I also let that vulnerability come through and that humanness come through.
Leo:Because when you are vulnerable, when you are human within these spaces, people go, oh, they're struggling too.
Leo:They're moving through things too.
Leo:They're a human being as well.
Leo:And then the power of that, that practice resonates on an entirely different level.
Lorin:Profound brother.
Lorin:And it, it, it really translates to both our personal journey and the journey for anyone who is facilitating because it's the, it's the personal journey of realizing I don't need fixing, I don't need healing.
Lorin:I need to create the environment and space for myself for deep healing to happen.
Lorin:And isn't that also the definition of a reiki master of any master?
Leo:Yeah.
Lorin:Is that the space they create invites the, the higher consciousness to come through?
Leo:Yes.
Lorin:And that's the powerful healing.
Leo:Yes.
Lorin:|And the moment there is a big, I, I am healing, I am doing something.
Lorin:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:I am this.
Lorin:That's the moment where spirit can, it's almost like the doors.
Leo:It's a block.
Lorin:Are closed.
Leo:Yeah.
Leo:It's a block because it's, your identity is blocking.
Leo:You know, I love, I love the, the Rastafari and you know, they say I and I, they never say I, they're always talking about the collective whenever they speak.
Leo:That's why they say I and I, they mean the collective.
Leo:And that for me is, but then it's interesting because going back to the conversations we've been having, I've been in this head space for so many years.
Leo:I, and I, you know, the collective consciousness, but don't forget about yourself within that.
Leo:Like, create space for yourself and your own work within that.
Leo:Otherwise, you can get lost and you can get lost, and it can become, you can hide from yourself.
Leo:And actually, you know, who am I if I'm not taking responsibility for myself, and who am I if I'm not, you know, I'm always doing my best.
Leo:When I did the first yoga training I ever did, I learned about the yamas and niyamas within the yogic philosophy, and it resonated so powerfully that I applied that to my whole life.
Leo:I was like, okay.
Leo:But a lot now I look and I've applied it to my whole life, but a lot I've been like, this is how I am with other people.
Leo:How can I be nonviolent towards other people?
Leo:How can I not steal from other people?
Leo:And then say for instance, Aire.
Leo:Which is non stealing.
Leo:And people go, okay, yeah, non stealing.
Leo:I'm not gonna steal your watch from you now.
Leo:Right.
Leo:That's, that's great.
Leo:But what about people's time?
Leo:What about people's joy?
Leo:And I've noticed recently I've started setting a lot more firm boundaries with people in my time.
Lorin:Wow.
Leo:If someone is coming consistently late to me.
Leo:And I won't be sharp or judgmental about it, I'll practice compassionate discernment and then I'll have a conversation and go, Hey, just so you know, like the last couple of times, you know, you've been a bit late, I wanna honor your time as much as my time.
Leo:I see your time as the same as mine.
Leo:I'm sure you feel the same, but actually this isn't working for me.
Leo:If there's gonna continue to be that imbalance.
Leo:And there's that boundary, whereas I'll do my best always to be on time for people, and I'll always let people know if I'm not, and I'll be apologetic, but then beforehand in the past I'd be like, oh, well I can be compassionate.
Leo:It's okay.
Leo:They're late.
Leo:I'll be compassionate.
Lorin:I wanna ask you a question here.
Lorin:What is the most uncomfortable truth that you had to face in your journey of awakening?
Leo:The identity that I'm perceived as and who I am as a human being and the differences between those and aligning them has been deeply uncomfortable at points for me.
Lorin:Mm-Hmm.
Leo:And seeing the fractures and seeing the shadows and facilitating in this beautiful, open-hearted way.
Leo:And then seeing the unconscious patterns that I had and the work to go into them and move into them.
Leo:And then the perception and the validation that comes from people seeing you and perceiving you in a certain way.
Leo:And then the inner dialogue and the work towards coming to that place and not abandoning myself.
Leo:That is currently the most uncomfortable truth.
Leo:Um, many, many times I feel uncomfortable truths that have come up for me are really not identifying myself with what I do.
Leo:And that has been a continual process.
Leo:Oh, I'm a rollerblader.
Leo:I do this.
Leo:This is who I am.
Leo:This is what I, this is what validates me.
Leo:It's this external validation of my identity.
Leo:And actually that coming up again and again and again, and continually stripping that back.
Leo:And then you strip that back and you go, well, who am I without these things?
Leo:And that is, that is a, it's a, you know, who am I behind what I'm doing?
Leo:When you strip away all of the, the what you are doing, how people perceive you as a facilitator, people telling you you are really great at what you do, who are you outside of that, and is that enough?
Leo:And that feeling of it, not feeling like enough and having to sit with that and go you're not what you do, you are not what you do.
Leo:You are not just this space holder that does these things.
Leo:You're not just this yoga, breath sound.
Leo:Like that is not what should define you.
Leo:And if that is what is defining me, then that is an illusion.
Leo:I will continue to do all of the things I do.
Leo:I love this.
Leo:It is my deepest passion.
Leo:It is my deepest truth, but how can I be human within that?
Leo:And how can I allow myself to be human within that?
Leo:And how can I give myself space to be vulnerable, to drop into the yin energy and to allow myself to receive from people and to say, actually I'm not okay.
Leo:I am struggling mentally at the minute.
Leo:I have all of these tools.
Leo:But wow, there's a lot happening.
Leo:Wow, that's been uncomfortable.
Lorin:is a question that I love to ask myself or a question that invites so much growth, which relates to this is, who am I in total stillness?
Lorin:Who am I when there is no one?
Lorin:When everything becomes still, when there is no story and there is no concept.
Lorin:And what I realized is that I was insecure.
Lorin:Of course, that's not the truth of who I am, but when I stripped it all away Yeah.
Lorin:What was there?
Lorin:Anxiety.
Lorin:Insecurity.
Leo:Yeah.
Lorin:And a need to run from that stillness.
Leo:Yeah.
Lorin:And yet, stillness is where we come from.
Lorin:Stillness is where we're going to go back to.
Lorin:And we spend our lives running from this stillness.
Lorin:And the this, this sounds so simple, but there's so many subtle ways how we run from this stillness.
Leo:Yeah.
Lorin:That people say feel your emotions, but, but it's about really applying this at a practical level because we can talk all day about feeling your emotions and doing the most powerful practices.
Lorin:But to invite and create that space in your life.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:Where you go, no, I'm not gonna distract myself right now.
Lorin:I'm going to now enter stillness and really feel the depth of the anxiety, overwhelmed grief, or whatever it is.
Lorin:And finally, enough, when we go deeper, when I use the word insecurity, it's almost superficial because what really is underneath is usually a deeper sense of sadness.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:Or a deeper sense of grief.
Lorin:I I, I almost feel like that it's there.
Lorin:It's there.
Lorin:It's saying, Hey,
Leo:I'm in, I'm in it.
Lorin:I'm here.
Leo:I, I know I'm in it right now.
Leo:I'm, I'm in that process right now.
Lorin:And yet we run.
Leo:Yeah.
Leo:And we run.
Leo:And our society teaches us to run.
Leo:'Cause our society tells us that.
Leo:Everyone has to see that you are doing well.
Lorin:\Yes.
Leo:Everyone has to see that you're doing okay and you to put that perception across.
Leo:And then there's even the alternative of that where the emotional inner landscape, it can become a performance of, oh, I want to perform and I'm gonna show you all of this.
Leo:And it's like, where are you in that deeper stillness?
Leo:Well, I have ADHD so often in that deeper stillness, there's a lot of chaos.
Leo:I was really lucky to be in Durham, Charlotte recently, and um, every morning going to a silent meditation there at a Tibetan monastery called, uh, Tita.
Leo:If anyone's in India, they're in North India.
Leo:Go to Darren Charlotte tida every morning, free meditation.
Leo:Really beautiful.
Leo:And there is sadness, there is grief.
Leo:There's all of these things that haven't had the opportunity to have space held for them because I've gone, okay, I'm in.
Leo:I'm doing this, I'm supporting everyone.
Leo:Start holding space for yourself, Leo.
Leo:So I'm there at the moment and it is uncomfortable and it is like difficult and it is emotional, but do you know what is so beautiful?
Leo:And then I'm like, okay, like feel this witness this.
Leo:Know that there is alchemy in these depths, in these shadows.
Leo:Like your deepest, deepest shadows if you just sit with them like I am now.
Leo:I know if I sit with them, if I embrace them, if I accept those parts of myself and go, I see these parts of myself, where do I move from here?
Leo:There is deep power in that vulnerability and it comes from stillness, you know?
Leo:And our society goes, keep going, keep moving.
Leo:Tick the boxes, achieve the goals.
Leo:You are a man.
Leo:Like make a strong, stable, support.
Leo:Make a base, make a foundation.
Leo:People wanna see you strong.
Leo:People wanna see you showing up.
Lorin:Yes.
Leo:People wanna see you, well dressed, smart, all of these things.
Leo:It's an illusion.
Lorin:it's almost as if our deepest strength is when we find ourselves in that stillness, and then as we can hold space for ourselves and come from that place, it changes everything.
Lorin:But what I noticed inside me is that there is such a humbleness, there is a deep sense of humbleness that accompanies that.
Lorin:It's almost like when we are in our highest power, it's never like kind of blasting war.
Lorin:I'm so powerful, I'm so special, I'm so this.
Lorin:It becomes so still and that that level of grounding.
Lorin:It's almost like we get completely out of the way.
Lorin:We're, we're no longer there.
Lorin:And this, this deeper intelligence is starting to move through us.
Lorin:It's quite, it's quite incredible also that, um, whatever we talk about it leads us at a level deeper.
Lorin:It always kind of leads us to a deeper answer, which is who are we in that stillness?
Lorin:And are we doing the work to actively speaking about everyone collectively?
Lorin:Are we doing the work to face ourselves in that stillness?
Leo:yeah.
Leo:I've, you know, I left block in December, was doing workshops in Manchester all the way through January and then after January went to India and have been back and forth there, been in India for about four and a half months, I would say, and or India and traveling in general for four and a half, five months of the last six months, really.
Leo:And it has been a case of facing myself.
Leo:I see that now.
Leo:I realize that there has been so much that's come up where it's like, face yourself, now it is time.
Leo:And I really feel this has come up at the time where I can really sit with it, where I've had the space to sit with it, where I've had the space to feel the discomfort, and it is an ongoing process.
Leo:But yeah, I really, really, really want to just, um, articulate to anyone that's listening to this podcast right now that don't perceive these people that you see, and I'm not even talking about me.
Leo:Even someone like Dharma Mitra, you know this master that has been teaching for 55 years.
Leo:Notice if you are perceiving this person as better or better than you, or above you or even below you.
Leo:Notice if you are perceiving anyone in your life as above or below you, notice where you are judging that because you have no idea of someone's internal landscape.
Leo:You have no idea of the things you know.
Leo:Even when you see people commit atrocity and violence, it's very easy to just look at the top layer and judge that person sharply.
Leo:The reality of it is, is that the.
Leo:Everything is according to your conditions, and your conditions are based on your perspective, but a lot of people have very, very harsh conditions.
Leo:And even if we don't have harsh conditions, it's like there's this ease to have these perceptions.
Leo:We're taught to have these perceptions by society, and no one is above or below you.
Leo:You know a man that is homeless on the street, that has absolutely nothing, that is in deep suffering, that is taking drugs, they are not below you.
Leo:Someone who you consider to be a guru and you see this guru archetype, they are not above you.
Leo:You know you are neither above or below, and as soon as you start to come away from that judgment and come into discernment, discernment is not external.
Leo:Judgment is a sharp sword that cuts externally, I believe.
Leo:Discernment is an inner landscape of listening within and going energetically, is this aligning with me?
Leo:Not, is that person good, bad, better or worse?
Leo:Right?
Leo:Wrong, above or below.
Leo:Is this aligning with my internal landscape as I am now and honoring that and not abandoning yourself in that way.
Lorin:The word that comes to me here is also death.
Lorin:A lot of what we've been talking about here is that kind of shadow death, that ego death on the spiritual journey.
Leo:Yes.
Lorin:Actually, everything we've, we were, we've been talking about so far.
Lorin:One of the practices I now actually do on a almost or even daily basis is I reflect about death.
Lorin:I see death as the master teacher.
Lorin:Because deafthalmost invites it in it.
Lorin:It's like this, it's like this being or this energy that comes and it takes everything from you and only you remain.
Lorin:That's, that's my perception of it.
Leo:Beautiful perception.
Lorin:And it's, it's, it's the, it's the realization also of, also of what matters the most, what matters the most in my life.
Lorin:And it's almost like inviting death in as a teacher and death is a cleanser.
Lorin:It, it cleanses, death cleanses us from all the wrong perceptions and stories that we hold about ourselves, or we hold about the world.
Lorin:And it's almost like even in that moment, as we even just talk about the word death, there is, there is such a power in that and the masculine, there is such a deep connection on archaic level with death.
Lorin:Because what does it mean for us men to be in our power?
Lorin:It means to always be in com, communion with death.
Lorin:It's almost like remaining connected to death and that connection to death allows us to.
Lorin:To be the light that this world needs.
Leo:I mean, this is, you know, as well the yogic path, the, the yogic path when you strip it all back and get deeper into it.
Leo:And all of the understanding from the Sikhs as well is, you know, I saw a beautiful documentary, actually, it's called On Yoga, the Architecture of Peace, and there's a beautiful Kundalini facilitator there and she says that the Sikhs, before they die there, or all the way through their practice, they're articulating Wahe guru, my, wow, my guru.
Leo:And it is in preparation for death.
Leo:They're preparing themselves for death.
Leo:And she says beautifully how a lot of people, they swear when they die at the point that they're dying because they're, they're not prepared.
Leo:But I feel in our lives we can distract ourselves from the deaths that we have continually.
Leo:I know that I've, in my life, honestly, it's weird.
Leo:It's almost like Forrest Gump sometimes when I look at my life and the different stages I've gone through.
Leo:I'm 41 now, and I'm like, when I tell people I've done all of these different things and it surprises them, but each one of those is an identity that has then died.
Leo:Each time we have this idea of who we are and we solidify this idea of this is who I am, this is what I, what I do, that's kind of an illusion.
Leo:We are doing the things that we're doing in our lives and we are being that way, but really those identities create a separation from the deeper collective consciousness.
Leo:And when you realize that when I'm having this conversation with you now, I'm not Leo the yoga teacher.
Leo:I'm just a, a soul speaking to another soul.
Leo:And we are not separate at all.
Leo:We are absolutely one, and everything around you is one.
Leo:You know, when we take an inhale, the trees are nourishing us.
Leo:When we take an exhale, we are feeding the trees.
Leo:We are in a constant cyclical balance with the whole of nature.
Leo:And yet we are taught to have this independent identity that then creates separation.
Leo:So it's beautiful to know what you are, what your beliefs are, and stay strong and steady with your beliefs.
Leo:But also if they change, honoring that authenticity, but at the same time, knowing that your belief systems are just a construct and that actually underneath that construct, you are everyone and everything and you are no one and nothing.
Lorin:Talking about the power of breath, I would call you a master breath for teacher.
Lorin:I know you don't.
Lorin:I know You don't identify.
Leo:That's your master breath.
Lorin:I know you don't identify with the words, but you have practiced a lot with your breath.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:And from what I gather, it is a continuous practice in your life to be aware of your breath and really utilize and harness its power.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:For anyone listening right now, what would you recommend for starting their journey of working with the breath?
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:And why is this so important?
Leo:The breath is everything.
Leo:I mean, again, going back to the yogic traditions, the whole practice of yoga, one of the fundamentals is creating an environment within your body where you can have the longest, slowest breaths in your resting life.
Lorin:Wow.
Leo:In your general day-to-day life and, uh, the yoga do
Lorin:So breath, so as little inhale and exhale?
Leo:As as smallest, longest inhales and exhales in your resting.
Leo:And this can come from doing dynamic practices like kabati and strengthening the abdominals.
Leo:This can come from conscious connective breathing where you are expanding the diaphragm.
Leo:And actually a lot of the different breath traditions, it's a shame, because what they tend to do, you know, for instance, some people that will practice yogic pranayama will say, well, conscious connective breathing's not great.
Leo:Or someone doing the oxygen advantage will say, a different practice isn't good.
Leo:All of these different practices are beautiful and powerful.
Leo:They have their own relative benefits and their own limitations, but their tools.
Leo:When you can take all of them and use them all as one and not see one as better or worse, it's very powerful.
Leo:But for me, what I would advise, I feel, is just generally to first observe how you are breathing, the way in which you're breathing.
Lorin:And is this something you do as much as possible throughout the day?
Leo:I, I unconsciously become, I'm unconscious now, but it's programmed in where it'll come up and my unconscious will go, oh, you're, you know, it'll give me a signal and then I'll stop.
Lorin:So you've trained yourself so much in this, that your subconscious gives you a signal that you are not aware of your breath right now?
Leo:Yes.
Leo:Yeah, that happens.
Leo:Um, interestingly, I did a mandala training recently with an amazing, uh, breath facilitator on there.
Leo:And actually, it's really interesting I breathe really deeply into my abdominals, which activates rest and digest, and that's a really good thing in a way.
Leo:But here, funnily enough as talking about armoring in our hearts, I'm quite restricted.
Leo:I'm actually quite restricted in my heart.
Leo:So I'll breathe deep into my belly.
Leo:And then at the top of my breath, I'm breathing very freely here, but in the middle there's restrictions.
Leo:So I'm working a lot of the minute, I'm working on extensions of the spine and arches and fascial release up here, actually.
Leo:But what I tend to find is the majority of UK society, as an example, or society, western society in general, has I regular breathing patterns.
Leo:The first thing that I would say to observe is, are you breathing up in your chest and not breathing in your belly?
Leo:That's a really good indication that you are activating sympathetic with your breath, so you're actually putting yourself in fight or flight with your breath, or even freeze if you're breathing up in your chest and not in the belly.
Leo:So to anyone who is listening to this right now, a big piece of advice I would get people to do is every day for at least a few minutes, just put the hands on the belly, breathe in and out slowly through the nose.
Leo:No pause at the top or the bottom and just start to feel that expansive nature in the belly and start to train belly breathing.
Leo:Now, something else I would highly advise and obviously check if you have any, um, health contraindications first, if you have anything going on with your heart, um, you know, check with a doctor with your general, um, contraindications.
Leo:But my advice would definitely be to the majority of generally healthy and well people is to mouth tape in the evenings.
Leo:And it's really interesting.
Leo:I've had a few people and seen a few people that are saying, oh, you shouldn't do this in case you have these complications.
Leo:If you are taping your mouth and it is not working for you, your body will wake you up.
Leo:You are not gonna tape your mouth and then have suffering from that.
Leo:And no one ever has.
Leo:But when you tape your mouth, when you sleep, you will be breathing through your nose.
Leo:When you are breathing through your nose, you are producing nitric oxide.
Leo:You are balancing out your oxygen and carbon dioxide levels, and you are also filtering the breath and changing the temperature of the breath within the nose.
Leo:So you are using a lot less energy to breathe.
Leo:You are also breathing in an even and regular way, so it's not disturbing your sleep.
Leo:And then you're producing nitric oxide in the body, which is one of the most powerful healing chemicals.
Leo:When I breathe through the mouth, I change the shape of my face.
Leo:Okay?
Leo:You literally, in the space of six months of someone breathe through their mouth, they have drop cheekbones, because the palate is lifted.
Leo:When the palate lifts from mouth, mouth breathing, the cheekbones drop.
Leo:If they take their mouth when they're sleeping and breathe through their nose, guaranteed they'll breathe through their nose when they're sleeping.
Leo:That will then change the way they're breathing in the rest of their lives and their cha the whole shape of your skull changes.
Leo:They've done these ex.
Leo:Unfortunately, I did this experiment on monkeys, but found that it literally changed the shape of their skull.
Leo:There's been studies done on two twins where one of them's breathing regularly, uh, through the nose.
Leo:One of them is breathing irregularly through the mouth.
Leo:Their whole face structure changes.
Leo:So aside though, from the aesthetic side of it, if you are breathing through your mouth and if you are breathing up in your chest, you are gonna be in a lot higher stress levels in your life and you will be utilizing and wasting a lot more energy than if you are breathing through your nose and breathing into your belly.
Lorin:I sense there are a lot of people who do a little bit of breath work.
Leo:Mm-Hmm.
Lorin:They feel the power.
Leo:Yes.
Lorin:They feel the energy.
Lorin:And then they stop.
Leo:Mm.
Lorin:And this in general, all kind of practice I've noticed in the past, inside myself.
Leo:Yeah.
Lorin:It's almost like that unconscious programming that says, Ooh, you are starting to feel really powerful.
Leo:Mm.
Lorin:Let's stop doing that, right?
Leo:Yeah.
Lorin:Because that's not comfortable.
Lorin:How were you able to find again, and again, and again, this level of devotion and discipline that you stay with the practice?
Leo:Because I've had this from my shadow, from the things that I've gone through, from people saying you can't do that.
Leo:And it was with skating at first, then it was with squash people saying, oh, you're not a very good CL player.
Leo:You're not technically gifted.
Leo:Luckily, my first teacher, my first yoga teacher didn't teach me any yoga.
Leo:He was a squash coach.
Leo:And those things, and those ignitions have then translated into me having that tapas and that discipline.
Leo:Obviously that was my shadows then.
Leo:And even with the yoga, when I started my yoga journey, when I first did my Dharma training in New York, they said, okay, one of the parts of your training is that you have to do dharma one every day for 30 days.
Leo:And Dharma one is quite a basic sequence.
Leo:But I really saw the beauty and the gift of doing that for 30 days.
Leo:And then I started practicing yoga every single day.
Leo:That went to a year.
Leo:I was working with Lululemon.
Leo:They got us to set a New Year's resolution and one of them was, I'm gonna do 365 days of yoga.
Leo:Did that for a year.
Leo:Then I carried on.
Leo:Then at about day 480, I was like, what am I if I don't practice today?
Leo:And it's al almost always been the opposite for me, where then I realized that I wasn't enough without the practice.
Leo:And so I've built discipline in a different way.
Leo:But what I would say to anyone who is getting into these practices now that is looking to cultivate discipline is small amounts of time, but consistent.
Leo:If you can do 10, 15 minutes of breath, just wake up 15 minutes earlier.
Leo:And the other thing I would really advise is find a couple of different breath practices to do.
Leo:Don't just do conscious connective breathing every morning.
Leo:You know, that's great, but it's a very energizing practice.
Leo:On some mornings listening to how you're feeling and try a different tool of breath, try naty shaer to balance out the left and right hemisphere.
Leo:There's so many different tools.
Leo:Now, if I was a builder and I had some, um, building work to do and I only used the hammer all the time, it would turn the building into a bit of a mess, right?
Leo:So it's understanding first that there are hundreds of different breath practices, there are thousands of different meditation practices.
Leo:Try different ones until you find one that is very impactful to you.
Leo:Take that as one of your tools, but it's not your only tool.
Leo:Keep ex explore.
Leo:Exploring, find a few more.
Leo:Start to use these tools.
Leo:Listen to how you are feeling on any given day and go, right, what are these tools?
Leo:So first of all, it's learning the tools.
Leo:First of all, it's practicing and learning the tools and refining the tools and then it's using them.
Leo:But just start simply, I mean, the most simplest thing you can do is, you know, circular breathing is so simple in the morning, hands on the belly, in and out through the nose.
Leo:You can even do this as mouth breathing.
Leo:I mean, I've actually got, um, a number of different meditations.
Leo:I've got a beautiful 18 minute circular breath recording that a studio called Pitch and Sync did in London for me.
Leo:So if you want that voice recorded meditation and some other voice recorded meditations, feel free to reach out.
Leo:It's Leo_Oppenheim.
Lorin:We're gonna put that into the show notes.
Lorin:We're gonna link it all there.
Leo:Brilliant.
Lorin:And I also wanted to ask you to wrap this up.
Lorin:Where can people find you?
Leo:so actually I will be from October, end of October for six months of the year I'll be in India.
Leo:Um, we have a new school opening in India called Alchemy Wellness.
Leo:This will have amazing drop-in classes.
Leo:I'll be facilitating them.
Leo:It will have breath and cold water too.
Leo:It'll also have breath it sound trainings and some small yoga trainings as well.
Leo:Continued professional development.
Leo:So you can find me in a gonder, south goer in India from, from October to March.
Leo:April to September, you can find me here, there, and everywhere.
Leo:I will be doing retreats, festivals, events.
Leo:I'll be doing workshops within Manchester, but I will, my plan next year is to live in a camper van and really to start moving internationally with my offerings.
Leo:But really, really importantly, you can find me quite simply by just dropping me a message on Instagram.
Leo:I'm more than happy to share a lot of the meditations and the breath recordings I have with people.
Leo:I'm more than happy to have beautiful, open conversations, you know, if this is resonating with you, if you have any questions, please reach out.
Leo:It is an honor and a privilege when anyone reaches out to me to have these conversations.
Leo:'Cause whenever I'm having these conversations and I'm a mirror for you, I'm also doing my best to be a mirror for myself.
Lorin:Thank you so much for being here.
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